Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[ButteMT61]

You guys sure ruined this thread with facts lol

 

[sheeplady]

You guys sure ruined this thread with facts lol

Ok, so here's a blog about the displacement of some navity scenes at a small park: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/atheist-messages-have-displaced-most-of-santa-monicas-park-nativity-scenes/2011/12/13/gIQAm3C0rO_story.html

Although, I'm a bit puzzled as to why an atheist would have a sign saying "Happy Solstice" since the Solstice (Yule) is a religious holiday for pagans. Saying "Rawr, you shouldn't celebrate a religious Christmas, let's go celebrate another religious holiday that we'll pretend isn't religious" is kind of... dumb. Either that, or the blogger is equating pagans with atheists- which is even more dumb.

 

[ButteMT61]

Ok, so here's a blog about the displacement of some navity scenes at a small park: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/atheist-messages-have-displaced-most-of-santa-monicas-park-nativity-scenes/2011/12/13/gIQAm3C0rO_story.html

Although, I'm a bit puzzled as to why an atheist would have a sign saying "Happy Solstice" since the Solstice (Yule) is a religious holiday for pagans. Saying "Rawr, you shouldn't celebrate a religious Christmas, let's go celebrate another religious holiday that we'll pretend isn't religious" is kind of... dumb. Either that, or the blogger is equating pagans with atheists- which is even more dumb.

It's because the average person out doing nothing but griping/protesting instead of going to work/school doesn't know their head from their seat-filling posterior. My guess.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

You guys sure ruined this thread with facts lol

Would that more threads around here were "ruined" thus. The result would be a better Fedora Lounge.

 

[ButteMT61]

Would that more threads around here were "ruined" thus. The result would be a better Fedora Lounge.

People being people always do that. It's inevitable in online forums.
This place is 100% more structured than most places, so I guess you should be happy knowing that...

 

[Marc Chevalier]

People being people always do that.

What I meant was, I approve of that kind of "ruining" (in quotes). It is, in fact, constructive.

 

[ButteMT61]

What I meant was, I approve of that kind of "ruining" (in quotes). It is, in fact, constructive.

I got it. I was joking - most threads start out serious and degrade, hence I thought this was funny, in reverse...

 

[vitanola]

Speaking as a regular churchgoer, I must question the sincerity of the charges in the WaPo of conspiracy. As an applicant for a LPFM broadcast license back in 1999 I do know that there was an organised movement bu evangelical Christian groups to appropriate the expensive engineering studies done by putative secular broadcasters to claim as many channels as possible for their FM translators, which broadcast canned satellite programming rather than the local programming envisioned for the LPFM service, and thus crowd out any secular broadcasters.

 

[HepKitty]

You guys sure ruined this thread with facts lol

you aren't implying that you like to be deceived, are you? I agree with Marc, I do think polite discussions are educational and helpful. let's not let this thread degrade into cheap shots please

Ok, so here's a blog about the displacement of some navity scenes at a small park: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/atheist-messages-have-displaced-most-of-santa-monicas-park-nativity-scenes/2011/12/13/gIQAm3C0rO_story.html

Although, I'm a bit puzzled as to why an atheist would have a sign saying "Happy Solstice" since the Solstice (Yule) is a religious holiday for pagans. Saying "Rawr, you shouldn't celebrate a religious Christmas, let's go celebrate another religious holiday that we'll pretend isn't religious" is kind of... dumb. Either that, or the blogger is equating pagans with atheists- which is even more dumb.

possibly because the solstice is an observable astronomical event, and people do like to have reasons to celebrate. I don't think that getting insulting here is going to help. I mean, is there any evidence that can be observed by the entire world of any deity's birthday?

It's because the average person out doing nothing but griping/protesting instead of going to work/school doesn't know their head from their seat-filling posterior. My guess.

I don't see how this is to help the discussion either. if this country was founded upon the idea of religious freedom (check some quotes of our founding fathers, some of which are more atheistic than anything else), why shouldn't other beliefs be represented? would you get worked up if Muslims or Jews or Buddhists borrowed that same display space during their holidays? I think they should borrow the space to help celebrate their holidays. it's the only way to show no special privilege to any one religion. either that, or no displays should be put up on federal/public lands at all.

another thought to ponder: if one religion is so insistent on their beliefs being respected (and we can see this happening in more than one area of the world), then should they not EARN said respect by respecting others' beliefs? demanding what must be earned only breeds hostility. imagine going to work and demanding your paycheck without actually working for it... not happening. all one does when one makes demands like that without making the appropriate concessions is LOSE respect and credibility.

and since the subject is xmas, "peace on earth, goodwill to men" how is that possible when the people singing these carols at church too busy screaming about imaginary discrimination, when any real discrimination would be against all the other religions who do not have government-mandated holidays and are not allowed fed/public lands for their displays?

 

[ButteMT61]

@ HepKitty" Deceived? Hmmm. No.
Not sure where you came up with a "cheap shot" in there - no such thing was done.
As for other beliefs being represented, have at it. Display all the holiday icons you wish - that's fine with me. I'm not "religious" in the sense I don't believe in churches and much of what passes for organized religion. I prefer to keep it personal and leave it at that. I wish others would too actually.
Official holidays aren't religion. Every religion (within reason/law) is free to practice here. I didn't realize that a holiday was needed to practice religion?

 

[HepKitty]

@ HepKitty" Deceived? Hmmm. No.
Not sure where you came up with a "cheap shot" in there - no such thing was done.
As for other beliefs being represented, have at it. Display all the holiday icons you wish - that's fine with me. I'm not "religious" in the sense I don't believe in churches and much of what passes for organized religion. I prefer to keep it personal and leave it at that. I wish others would too actually.
Official holidays aren't religion. Every religion (within reason/law) is free to practice here. I didn't realize that a holiday was needed to practice religion?

of course not, no one likes to be deceived. and as for "keeping it personal," you certainly gave a lot of info on your personal beliefs

ok so I should have put the "cheap shot" comment after this quote of yours:

It's because the average person out doing nothing but griping/protesting instead of going to work/school doesn't know their head from their seat-filling posterior. My guess.

did you mean Christians protesting or other groups protesting? either way it's a pretty nasty thing to say

 

[HepKitty]

as for holidays, banks and govt functions all shut down for... xmas. do they shut down for hannukah or ramadan?

 

[ButteMT61]

as for holidays, banks and govt functions all shut down for... xmas. do they shut down for hannukah or ramadan?

The Xmas break/holiday is used and enjoyed by many faiths. At least with my friends, family and coworkers. Not a problem I've ever heard of before...

 

[ButteMT61]

of course not, no one likes to be deceived. and as for "keeping it personal," you certainly gave a lot of info on your personal beliefs

ok so I should have put the "cheap shot" comment after this quote of yours:



did you mean Christians protesting or other groups protesting? either way it's a pretty nasty thing to say

Did you see what I was replying to with that? If not, go on back and have a look.

 

[HepKitty]

The Xmas break/holiday is used and enjoyed by many faiths. At least with my friends, family and coworkers. Not a problem I've ever heard of before...

there is life beyond your circle of friends and family but look at the date of said winter break: it still revolves around xmas and banks and govt functions do shut down xmas eve and day. I'm not saying that no one else enjoys the time off. my point is, that other religious holidays don't shut the country down

 

[LizzieMaine]

It may just be my New England ancestry showing, but personally, I don't think any religious holidays should be federally recognized. People ought to be given a set number of days each year they can take off from work for whatever holiday they care to observe, and keep government recognition completely out of it. That'd save a lot of fuss every year.

And again, it may be my ancestry showing, but I was raised in a culture where the specifics of your religious beliefs, or lack of such, was something you kept to yourself -- you didn't beat your neighbor over with it either way, and you didn't insist your neighbor believe what you believed. Seems to still make sense to me.

 

[HepKitty]

Did you see what I was replying to with that? If not, go on back and have a look.

it was to Sheeplady's comment but it's still not clear if you mean Christians or other groups. or both? please explain

 

[HepKitty]

It may just be my New England ancestry showing, but personally, I don't think any religious holidays should be federally recognized. People ought to be given a set number of days each year they can take off from work for whatever holiday they care to observe, and keep government recognition completely out of it. That'd save a lot of fuss every year.

And again, it may be my ancestry showing, but I was raised in a culture where the specifics of your religious beliefs, or lack of such, was something you kept to yourself -- you didn't beat your neighbor over with it either way, and you didn't insist your neighbor believe what you believed. Seems to still make sense to me.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[HepKitty]

Speaking as a regular churchgoer, I must question the sincerity of the charges in the WaPo of conspiracy. As an applicant for a LPFM broadcast license back in 1999 I do know that there was an organised movement bu evangelical Christian groups to appropriate the expensive engineering studies done by putative secular broadcasters to claim as many channels as possible for their FM translators, which broadcast canned satellite programming rather than the local programming envisioned for the LPFM service, and thus crowd out any secular broadcasters.

that's an interesting bit of info, thanks for sharing

 

[sheeplady]

possibly because the solstice is an observable astronomical event, and people do like to have reasons to celebrate. I don't think that getting insulting here is going to help. I mean, is there any evidence that can be observed by the entire world of any deity's birthday?

I didn't mean to be insulting, but I did mean to point out ignorance. I was simply posting an article, and I find it sad that people don't realize that the solstice *is* someone's religious holiday. It might not be religious intolerance, but it is ignorance. And in that case it is either ignorance on the part of the atheists, or ignorance on part of the blogger who either doesn't know that it is a religious holiday to some, or even worse, someone who equates a portion of paganism that celebrates the solstice with atheism.

As far as the lottery system discussed in the article, I think that is a fair way to do things. I think it's a little stupid that people are upset about it- if they don't like it- then work the lottery system- it's obvious that this is what churches used to do and they are upset that someone else (the atheists) found out their game.

I have no problems with religious or non-religious holiday displays of any type. As long as it is not offensive, I don't care.

I'm *not* going to say that everyone should have to have my date off, just because it is "an observable astronomical event." It's not just an "observable astronomical event" to me. I feel the same way about xmas, that it shouldn't be a blanket "off" day. We can agree on that point.