I can't comment on the Made in China leather jackets but I have been on a tear buying Red Tornado and Bob Dong off Aliexpress. I have been incredibly impressed. Everytime I place an order the seller I buy from on Aliexpress ensures the sizing is correct. This last time a pair of Red Tornado chino shorts were originally not TTS so I ordered a 33 but he responded back saying they changed their sizing and recommended a 31 now. They came and fit perfect. It is honestly better customer service than I ever received when buying items from Japan via Rakuten. Red Tornado and Bob Dong also make incredible products at the price point.
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Chinese leather jackets
- Thread starter TheBigEraser
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TheDonEffect
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TheBigEraser
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@Canuck Panda, thank you for your posts. I respect that these are your opinions but I have difficulty to relate the existence of these jackets with "poverty is the worst form of violence" or "developing country taking over jobs in developed country”. The posts earlier in this thread have clearly explained that in China, retro/heritage leather jacket market, which we are discussing here in this forum, is still a very niche market compared to the whole fashion business (which might also be the case worldwide). If we take a look at the lower end of the Chinese retro leather jacket market, the relatively cheap ones which you showcased in your post, in my opinion, they just the result of different business strategy and serve as a fashion garment. Unlike many educated members here who looks into design, culture and history behind the brand, customers of these relatively cheap jackets are just ordinary customers who have little knowledge about the origin. For them to buy a lower priced retro jacket is just like buying a mall jacket. They probably even don't know "aha, that's a vintage inspired leather jacket." The scenario of shopping these jackets could easily be: they were browsing through Taobao, entering key word "genuine leather jacket", and these pop out. Ah, these jackets look special, different style with the leather jackets produced by other fashion brands and they are made from genuine leathers instead of PU, ok, that's nice, I will get it. Or one day they were browsing through tiktok and suddenly see some fashion vlogger introducing the look of heritage clothing or amekaji, ok, that's nice, I will get some fashion garments who has this kind of look or vibe to see if that's something to me. That's it. These customers are no different with any ordinary customers in a rich or developing country who has zero knowledge about vintage inspired leather jackets. I don't know if misread your message, if I do, please let me know and my sincere apologies for that case.
I am not trying to justify some makers' wrongful business conduct or illegal behaviour. It is of course wrong if some people use rip off photos or have blunt disregard for copyright laws...etc. If you choose to buy these jackets with knowing they are doing wrong stuff, I honestly think that you are supporting these wrongful conducts.
On the other hand, buying these jackets mean you actually (at this moment) recognize the value behind these jackets. I would agree with you if I am only looking at the photos you included in the post. I see no rip off photos, I see no exact copy with contemporary proprietary design by any makers except the last one with RRL arc on the front pocket. If I am wrong please post the photo of the exact original version. By only looking at the photos of the first three jacket you bought, I honestly don't think any violation of common value honored here on TFL. The tricky part I see are the titles of the products. Some shady words are added to win the search ranking such as "RL" "Double helix". If they name their products straight out personally I would feel more correct. For example the $46 blue cowhide jacket. It literally wrote in Chinese "the real collection OEM stock sale first grain cowhide storm rider genuine cowhide short leather jacket".
Hopefully the logistics go smooth and you can receive your purchased jackets in good order. Looking forward to your comments and feedbacks, because the best language they can speak are the products themselves.
I am not trying to justify some makers' wrongful business conduct or illegal behaviour. It is of course wrong if some people use rip off photos or have blunt disregard for copyright laws...etc. If you choose to buy these jackets with knowing they are doing wrong stuff, I honestly think that you are supporting these wrongful conducts.
On the other hand, buying these jackets mean you actually (at this moment) recognize the value behind these jackets. I would agree with you if I am only looking at the photos you included in the post. I see no rip off photos, I see no exact copy with contemporary proprietary design by any makers except the last one with RRL arc on the front pocket. If I am wrong please post the photo of the exact original version. By only looking at the photos of the first three jacket you bought, I honestly don't think any violation of common value honored here on TFL. The tricky part I see are the titles of the products. Some shady words are added to win the search ranking such as "RL" "Double helix". If they name their products straight out personally I would feel more correct. For example the $46 blue cowhide jacket. It literally wrote in Chinese "the real collection OEM stock sale first grain cowhide storm rider genuine cowhide short leather jacket".
Hopefully the logistics go smooth and you can receive your purchased jackets in good order. Looking forward to your comments and feedbacks, because the best language they can speak are the products themselves.
@Canuck Panda I eagerly await your reviews. That olive suede one looks pretty great, and the olive sheep is interesting.
Canuck Panda
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No custom sizing. The Cidu jackets I got are all off the rack. I am still sticking to 5star and Johnson for fully customized jackets. There are shady dealers, but I went direct from the Cidu store.
I bought a denim coat from RedTornado too! He is the fastest. And I forgot to mention that AliExpress is free return. I’m not sure how return would work on Taobao for international buyer. For pants, I would also use AliExpress because I’m unsure about the sizing.
You’re right. There is a lot of value behind Cidu jackets. That’s why I just went to town on them like it was my first time in the candy store.
Most posts on this thread so far has been either yes they make good stuff or no I don’t believe they make good stuff. Or it was about copyright infringements. BUT NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE BIG ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, PRICING. So I did.
Is there a make or break difference between a $350 5Star jacket versus a $600 Vanson jacket versus a $1200 Aero jacket? Not to me. Then why did I pay all different prices to get different brands then? Because it’s a FUN HOBBY! The same logic would go like this: I would not pay 1200 dollars for 5star jacket no more than Aero would let me pay 350 dollars for their jacket. And damn it why doesn’t Vanson offer their line in Horween Essex for a premium up charge.
Cidu is my new go to source for the under $250 jacket category. This does not mean I will stop buying $600 Vanson’s, or $1200 Johnson’s. It just means I now have another place to get my fix at.
I sense some anger from your post and I apologize if I offended anyone. Not my intention. I was simply trying to explain the existence of sub 250 dollars jackets, by relating them to the inequalities in the world. I tried again in this post. Hope it makes sense.
They do look promising right now. All the truckers were advertised as 1mm/1.2mm light weight leather. But I’ve also got a advertised 1.4mm/1.6mm heavyweight Cidu Cafe racer. And some 22 oz Denim coat and Cidu’s Version of Filson Tincloth. Taobao were just too good for me to not try. Will measure them all up once I get them.
TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead
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Well said @Canuck Panda
I think for a lot of us, once you get past the "reasonable" range, what maybe 3 or 4 jackets LOL, it becomes a hobby. And whether it's baseball cards, Corvettes, Civil War memorabilia, whatever, you're always chasing stuff down because that's where the thrill comes from.
I find that in my collection I now have about 4 or 5 "fun" jackets. Not stuff I would wear everyday, but I like them for whatever reason. Ironically, most of them happen to be my cheaper cost wise jackets in my collection, and I think that's how I justify keeping them. For instance, that last jacket you posted, the green military inspired field jacket. I'd love to have that, but maybe I'd wear it once or twice a year. So it's hard to justify the $1600 version of that which someone like Thedi might make. But shoot, for $100-200 range, so long as it doesn't feel like a 99 cent store halloween costume material, I might grab one. At the same time I realize and shouldn't expect to have the same quality, workmanship, etc.
So that begs the question. Much how like the 5 Star thing got started. Is it good. Or just good for the money? We'll soon find out I guess as many trust your assessment. In both cases, they'll still get plenty of business because most people can't afford $1000+ jacket, much less several of them. So good for the money is going to check a lot of boxes. But I think to crack the code of a lot of us on here, it needs to be plain out good, within reason of course.
I think for a lot of us, once you get past the "reasonable" range, what maybe 3 or 4 jackets LOL, it becomes a hobby. And whether it's baseball cards, Corvettes, Civil War memorabilia, whatever, you're always chasing stuff down because that's where the thrill comes from.
I find that in my collection I now have about 4 or 5 "fun" jackets. Not stuff I would wear everyday, but I like them for whatever reason. Ironically, most of them happen to be my cheaper cost wise jackets in my collection, and I think that's how I justify keeping them. For instance, that last jacket you posted, the green military inspired field jacket. I'd love to have that, but maybe I'd wear it once or twice a year. So it's hard to justify the $1600 version of that which someone like Thedi might make. But shoot, for $100-200 range, so long as it doesn't feel like a 99 cent store halloween costume material, I might grab one. At the same time I realize and shouldn't expect to have the same quality, workmanship, etc.
So that begs the question. Much how like the 5 Star thing got started. Is it good. Or just good for the money? We'll soon find out I guess as many trust your assessment. In both cases, they'll still get plenty of business because most people can't afford $1000+ jacket, much less several of them. So good for the money is going to check a lot of boxes. But I think to crack the code of a lot of us on here, it needs to be plain out good, within reason of course.
Marc mndt
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I had a brief discussion with Theodoros (Thedi) on this subject matter. He explained to me how those Chinese knock off products will never be a substitute for what he offers. In terms of material used but also in terms of patterns (which are customized for each customer). Therefore, he doesn't really care about these Chinese companies copying his designs. It won't hurt his business because his customers (who appreciate the exceptional quality of his jackets) will never be satisfied with crappy Chinese jackets.
For low cost goods which can be produced cheaper in China and are of equal (perceived) quality, the Chinese might form a treat to our local businesses. That's why the European Union recently lowered the threshold for import fees from €22 to €0.
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Marc mndt
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For me, I would feel guilty and ashamed because I'm basically buying a fast fashion item which will wear out very quickly and will thus be discarded within a short time period. Lots of resources going to waste. Not to speak of poor production methods which are harmful to the environment.
Canuck Panda
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I believe the world is big enough for both Thedi and Cidu to co exist and thrive. Two totally different target audience. The Thedi customer will not buy a Cidu jacket as much as a Cidu customer cannot afford a Thedi.
Even they look alike, they are not substitute to each other.
My journey will lead me to both brands, and many others. But I’m neither Thedi nor Cidu’s target audience, I’m just addicted to hoarding jackets.
Even they look alike, they are not substitute to each other.
My journey will lead me to both brands, and many others. But I’m neither Thedi nor Cidu’s target audience, I’m just addicted to hoarding jackets.
TheDonEffect
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Thedi had elevated themselves to a higher level beyond competent craftsmanship, you are effectively buying art. I've always admired his stuff and it's slowly making my bucket list of items I would splurge on if I got to meet the maker.
It's like Rolex replicas, if anything it only created more notoriety for the brand.
But what about... Aero? Or Schott, vanson etc? Less fastidious attention to detail, less personalization and personal touch, more about the material and construction. In this arena things could get interesting. However, if people want a name brand leather, no matter who makes it, seems like the ballpark levels out quick. I remember having that discussion with having 5* make a Horween jacket, by the time everything is accounted for the price difference isn't that significant.
It's like Rolex replicas, if anything it only created more notoriety for the brand.
But what about... Aero? Or Schott, vanson etc? Less fastidious attention to detail, less personalization and personal touch, more about the material and construction. In this arena things could get interesting. However, if people want a name brand leather, no matter who makes it, seems like the ballpark levels out quick. I remember having that discussion with having 5* make a Horween jacket, by the time everything is accounted for the price difference isn't that significant.
But then there would still be the option to make completely custom designs and configure each individual dimension. My 5* Cafe Racer is certainly not a bit worse than my Aero in terms of workmanship and perhaps even a bit better in terms of fit.
If now the materials come to the level, then it would be a win for me even at the same price ;-)
Edward
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Those last two look particularly interesting. As the price of higher end leathers goes up, I begin to wonder if we'll see some of the big names making textile jackets in the leather styles as a slightly more affordable option. (Not much difference in the materials costs with good stuff, but I am led to believe textiles are more forgiving and therefore quicker and easier to work with, so can be had more affordably.)
These are significant factors I think about when justifying buying more expensive stuff, though I also try to remember I'm in the fortunate position that I have the choice. The fast-fashion culture is definitely one with many negative impacts, but there are also people out there who can't afford anything better.
The legalities of course loom large: the simple fact is that the law both across Europe and in the US offers only minimal protection for clothing design; clothes are assumed to be utilitarian, so not covered by copyright. Unless somebody invents something as much of a gamechanger as the zip was (in which case twenty years of patent can be an option), there's very little can be done legally to stop someone simply reverse engineering an item, creating a pattern and then scaling it from that. What you can of course do is prevent them actually copying your *patterns* themselves, or infringing copyright in your photographs, or infringing your trade mark. This is - controversial as it can be in these parts - why Lewis have, on and off, been so insistent on their logo on their jackets, and in turn why much of their market prizes it. Among the rocker revivalists, there's great pride taken in wearing a 'real' Lewis, so the logo patch is not a turnoff for them - despite the fact that it didn't appear until 1967, three years after the original rocker movement's heyday, and two years before even the Ace Cafe closed its doors until the re-opening in 2001, effectively signalling the death of that original scene.
Theodoros has the right attitude to it, IMO. A complete counterfeit can damage you, but a copy known to be a copy and selling at a fraction of the price isn't really going to do a lot of harm compared to the cost of shutting it down. I bought a Lorex watch in Beijing years ago as a souvenir. I knew it wasn't a Rolex. Still got it (keeps surprisingly good time, even if the years on the calendar wheel have long run out!). Would I have bought it if I could have afforded a real Rolex? No. Instead of a Rolex? No. Reality is, though, I'm never going to be able to afford a Rolex, so... Way of the world.
Canuck Panda
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5Star construction is solid. But IMO he would not gain much advantage by using imported Horween or Shinki leather. Shawn's biggest advantage is not his prices but his fully customize jacket. Gotta love him for that! If he decides to develop a premium brand, it'd be best he not market that under the same 5star name.
I would support his premium brand. But not premium products sold under the 5star brand.
There are a lot of China brands that tries to go premium on Taobao, by using Horween or Shinki. Prices starts at about 550 dollars.
I did not buy them and this is my logic:
I am used to paying 50 dollars for my Vans. I love them. If Vans started using Horween leather and raised their prices to 200 dollars, I would not buy them. I would still buy the 50 dollars Vans.
Now if the makers behind Vans branched out and created a new label that had nothing to do with Vans, and that nothing in the new brand is less than 300 dollars, and they have a pair of Vans looking shoes with Horween leather for $350. I would buy it.
Virgil Abloh once said he loved counterfeits, it's the best feedback to new product placements. He also said that his Off White brand (which was heavily counterfeited) was to inspire kids, it (Off White) is too expensive and the kids are suppose to make their own brand. Then corporate got involved and went after the counterfeiters. I hope some kids did get inspired.
I also bought a fake Rolax from my first flea market experience. It's not the watch but the right of passage for a kid who was just starting out in the world. That was the only fake Rolax in my life though. And I also don't buy real ones now either.
Auch hier ist es mir egal, denn mit meinen Maßen ist eine Jacke sowieso so gut wie unverkäuflich.
Definitely
But why?
Because of the possibly poorer resale value?
Again, I don't care, because with my measurements, a jacket is as good as not for sale anyway. Lol
Definitely
But why?
Because of the possibly poorer resale value?
Again, I don't care, because with my measurements, a jacket is as good as not for sale anyway. Lol
TheDonEffect
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Yeah, Virgil Abloh is a design genius in ways I cannot figure out. Dude put a plastic chain link chain on a LV purse that seriously looked it was from the cheap bin at Home Depot and had the nerve to charge alot for it, and people just ate it up. Perhaps it isn't that he's a genius as much as people are that stupid. He is a DJ, and DJs are known from time to time to play stuff that they think are crap just to see the crowd eat it up so they can then go in the back with their DJ friends and laugh about the plebs.
But why wouldn't you buy a premium 5* jacket? I get the feeling that he's trying to figure out his own recipe to make jackets, and then perhaps shy away from the full custom route but offer his own line with some alterations, ala Aero, but perhaps keep it in house as much as he can so he can offer it at a no brainer price. For me, I'm better off starting off with a off the shelf jacket where the engineering was worked out, and then making small alterations, usually shortening sleeves and a little tucking here and there since I tend to wear bigger sizes for my height. I think he's trying to keep the leather production in house or non-household name brand to maintain a price point he wants to attack. So the end result would be something like Vanson or Aero, but less biker, name brand leather centric, but at a no brainer price. I see it on his social media now he's selling more A2s and Cossacks and the non custom fits are getting better.
Which brings me to my counterpoint that I don't think the full custom route is their biggest advantage, it's the value. Because no western brand makes a full custom jacket at 350, but would you buy it at 600? 700? Because the same can be said at those price points. You can send him CXL and Shinki, total cost is around 700, which again still cheaper than any western brand.
Thanks thebigeraser for this detailed thread, which came up when googling Cidu leathers. I recently bought a Cidu double rider on Ali on a whim, and didn’t successfully google the brand until after I received it (thought it was Cider!). I was interested to read more about the brand as I have some experience with Chinese Amekaji non-leather workwear (Maden, Saucezhan and the like) but hadn’t found this particular rabbit hole!
Thought I’d share my purchase and experience if useful, and hoping an expert can identify the design of my particular jacket!
I bought a somewhat minimal double rider in sheepskin (lambskin?) simply because I liked the design and I wanted something more solid than fashion leather that wouldn’t need breaking in.
Quality: I’m definitely not a connoisseur, but it seems well made for the price. Much better than the fashion Schott I once owned and similar quality to the Leather Monkeys Icon I still have. It was cheaper than either. It definitely looks like I was hoping from the photos. They also do this in Cowhide with colourful lining.
Sizing: Interestingly, I always seem to overestimate the impact of ‘Asian Sizing’ with Amekaji stuff. This may be because, being of Chinese heritage, I too am ‘Asian sized’! I am usually 36/XS in western sizing and this M is too big on me. I am an S in Maden, too. For reference, Uniqlo XS fits me perfectly as does pretty much any 36 jacket. The only exception to this is my Leather Monkeys jacket which at 36 is a little tight, but as has been observed on here, they are a weirdly slim fit. I would call this a 38/UKS, but I’m no expert!
Service: I bought this on Ali from YR because in the UK they offer free returns which seems invaluable for this kind of thing. I have ordered the size S and will be returning this. I will let you know if there are any problems here but since it is offered via Ali I think should work out. They did ask me to see if I could sell it in the UK first which I will attempt for a week before returning because I imagine they would lose out on shipping if I return and I am nothing if not agreeable.
Question: Anyone know if this is a copy or an original design? Couldn’t find anything from the usual suspects that looks just like this but I’m no expert. I like the design anyhow. Classic DR but very slightly minimal (no belt, epaulettes or lighter(?) pocket). I notice Cidu tend to spin the normal designs (their two Mulholland types are both quite different, with buttons and 2-panel backs).
Bad pics (with product image for comparison):
Thought I’d share my purchase and experience if useful, and hoping an expert can identify the design of my particular jacket!
I bought a somewhat minimal double rider in sheepskin (lambskin?) simply because I liked the design and I wanted something more solid than fashion leather that wouldn’t need breaking in.
Quality: I’m definitely not a connoisseur, but it seems well made for the price. Much better than the fashion Schott I once owned and similar quality to the Leather Monkeys Icon I still have. It was cheaper than either. It definitely looks like I was hoping from the photos. They also do this in Cowhide with colourful lining.
Sizing: Interestingly, I always seem to overestimate the impact of ‘Asian Sizing’ with Amekaji stuff. This may be because, being of Chinese heritage, I too am ‘Asian sized’! I am usually 36/XS in western sizing and this M is too big on me. I am an S in Maden, too. For reference, Uniqlo XS fits me perfectly as does pretty much any 36 jacket. The only exception to this is my Leather Monkeys jacket which at 36 is a little tight, but as has been observed on here, they are a weirdly slim fit. I would call this a 38/UKS, but I’m no expert!
Service: I bought this on Ali from YR because in the UK they offer free returns which seems invaluable for this kind of thing. I have ordered the size S and will be returning this. I will let you know if there are any problems here but since it is offered via Ali I think should work out. They did ask me to see if I could sell it in the UK first which I will attempt for a week before returning because I imagine they would lose out on shipping if I return and I am nothing if not agreeable.
Question: Anyone know if this is a copy or an original design? Couldn’t find anything from the usual suspects that looks just like this but I’m no expert. I like the design anyhow. Classic DR but very slightly minimal (no belt, epaulettes or lighter(?) pocket). I notice Cidu tend to spin the normal designs (their two Mulholland types are both quite different, with buttons and 2-panel backs).
Bad pics (with product image for comparison):
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Marc mndt
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I don't think so. It looks to me like a incoherent mix and match of design features. The belt loops suggest it can be worn with a belt, but the loops are too small to fit a normal sized belt. Also, it's weird to combine belt loops and side adjusters. Traditional/classic leather jacket designs feature either one or the other, not both. I would categorize this as a fashion jacket.
I'd happily give Tony Leather in Shanghai a go. Seems solid. The majority of tailors in Shanghai are relatively average; the best ones I've found (who are not HK-affiliated) make great shoes and very nice suits. There is not much of a vintage 'niche' in China, as people favour new items. I've been quizzed as to why I often wear an 'old' jacket (an Aero Cafe Racer) by staff in my local - they'd go for a lambskin jacket, AllSaints, etc., given the option. A big thing here is re-using, replicating or adapting for local use. I've bought crappy originals and great copies of various things here (and that's when it's possible to discern the difference). If you hand over an original item to a decent tailor here they can usually copy it extraordinarily well, in the material of your choosing and at a reasonable price. The issue of an ethical consideration (when we are discussing reproductions, anyway), is cloudy. My tailor, when given an originally expensive item from Europe, happily informed me of exactly where the design and assembly could be improved on and then did so. Her reaction to the price I'd paid was a mixture of amusement and concern, as if I may have taken leave of my senses. Where that falls on the originality/replication/ethical scale is anyone's guess.
