Chinese leather jackets

[TheDonEffect]

OP, that was a very interesting and insightful post, really interesting read.

Then I read through some of the comments and I'll just say that it's funny how the labels "faithful reproductions/homage" and "knockoff/copy/replica" are applied. I guess every A2 I see are completely unique to each other.

 

[Robbie79]

Hi bro，this is how the Guofo Guidi leather jacket comes:
1 I went to contact the leather supplier and I bought the leather
2 Send the leather to Guofo, then choose the version you like, report the data, and make it. They generally charge a processing fee of about 250 USD

You could go to world.taobao.com, search "guofo" to contact

Guofo's workmanship is very good, and I think it is of the same grade as FW. For details, you can see the review of the fw vs guofo vs riskrider that I wrote before . There are many detailed close-up pictures of guofo. The stitches are very neat, the stitch pitch is tight. That’s why I said that they did a good job, worthy of 250 USD processing fee.

Thanks, Man, for sharing your very detailed review of the 3 Mulholland jackets. IMO they do look great and very similar compared to the FW Mulholland. Having the option to send them the leather of your choice sounds good. Very tempting but I think I will resist as makers like Greg Fields (Field Leathers) do exactly know my measurements and he's a nice guy to work with - in this case I already know what I get for the money I pay and he's based in Europe (communication and returns are easier).
Thanks again!!
P.S. I hope the Zenith Type 20 bronze edition is not a knock-off Beautiful watch!

 

[Mich486]

@TheDonEffect : An A2 contract out of production for decades can be reproduced, an original Thedi design currently in production not coming out from Thedi’s workshop can’t be anything else but a knock-off.

There are admittedly some grey areas but the above I think it’s what most people are referring to.

 

[TheDonEffect]

@TheDonEffect : An A2 contract out of production for decades can be reproduced, an original Thedi design currently in production not coming out from Thedi’s workshop can’t be anything else but a knock-off.

There are admittedly some grey areas but the above I think it’s what most people are referring to.

Perfecto, Cossack, half belts, Indiana Jones, etc etc etc.

Yes I agree that thedi definitely falls into the artist category, but many here have made custom jackets using design elements if not the entire designs from other artists as well. And many of thedis products are "faithful reproductions" as well, with even more being evolutions of past designs. Point is, this is a world of imitation, yet the labels are selectively used.

But yes in the above example where even thedis own image is used that's a rip off. But in the same breath others have called MTM custom makers as rip offs.

 

[nevergoneyc]

Thanks, Man, for sharing your very detailed review of the 3 Mulholland jackets. IMO they do look great and very similar compared to the FW Mulholland. Having the option to send them the leather of your choice sounds good. Very tempting but I think I will resist as makers like Greg Fields (Field Leathers) do exactly know my measurements and he's a nice guy to work with - in this case I already know what I get for the money I pay and he's based in Europe (communication and returns are easier).
Thanks again!!
P.S. I hope the Zenith Type 20 bronze edition is not a knock-off Beautiful watch!

Yeah，communication and measurement is the key

 

[TheBigEraser]

Can you access Taobao in English?

I don't think there's an official English version of Taobao but using Google Chrome with webpage translation can somehow tackle this issue. The real issue is that the communication with the leather jacket maker because they speak little English and to be honest I don't think they bother doing business for foreign people. Because communication can take long time and much energy, and profit they earned from individual foreign customer probably don't even justify that.

If you really have an eye on a certain model or you have some idea that you think Chinese leather jacket maker can help, maybe drop the question here in the thread or PM me. I will see if I can help.

 

[KissMyMuscle]

I heard guofo using good quality leather but they have a terrible reputation on their customer service and making uneven jackets. And they asked HaiNing company to make jackets for them. Probably 90% of leather jackets produced today is from HaiNing company.

 

[Fonzie]

I don't think there's an official English version of Taobao but using Google Chrome with webpage translation can somehow tackle this issue. The real issue is that the communication with the leather jacket maker because they speak little English and to be honest I don't think they bother doing business for foreign people. Because communication can take long time and much energy, and profit they earned from individual foreign customer probably don't even justify that.

If you really have an eye on a certain model or you have some idea that you think Chinese leather jacket maker can help, maybe drop the question here in the thread or PM me. I will see if I can help.

That’s awesome, thanks for that. It’s overwhelming when you dip your toe in the sea of Chinese online shopping options.

 

[Edward]

It's funny how you keep seeing the same issues pop up across different hobbyist groupings when it comes to manufacturing and such. For years before I got into this game, I was already into guitars. All the same debates about Chinese production went on there. IT's now finally being recognised that great product in that field can be and is being made in China. The irony is that China only gets associated with cheap rubbish in the West because that's what the West wanted, built down to the price the West sets. In recent years, there's been a lot of buzz about a custom shop in China making beautiful Fenderish (with specs and appointments Fender don't do) guitars for £800ish that are the equal of anything made in the US or UK and sold at £2000ish. Thing is, a lot more people than will admit it still are in thrall to the notion of "price equals what they are worth"; it's amazing also on forums how there was a mix of those who'd played one raving about it, and some, frankly, open racism from those who insisted that a "good" guitar couldn't possibly be made in China "because they have no cultural understanding of rock music and the factory workers aren't musicians." Guess nobody told those guys Leo Fender was a country fan, didn't care for rock, and couldn't play a note himself....

Getting past that "China makes crap" bigotry is going to be the hardest thing, I think. Another element, though, is the language barrier. Japanese stuff took a while to filter out, and there are still many Japanese brands for a lot of stuff we don't see outside Japan. Japan *Now* is accepted as a source of quality (most players nowadays in the guitar world will accept the Japanese build a better Gretsch than the US ever did on balance), but it wasn't always so. Really only into the eighties that Japan started being associated with quality...

I really believe there are equally artistic, talented, passionate and skilled craftsmen everywhere, it is not concentrated in specific part of the world, or belong to specific race or nations, claiming that would be racist

however due to the local market segment and lack of references, these talent and skill may lie dormant and not pushed to the optimal level as where the market is mature, where the style and quality control is guided for international higher tier market segment taste.

A lot depends on the market, of course. Internationally, people at least for now aren't on the whole (computer and phone technology seems to be an exception) prepared to pay big for Chinese manufacture, even if it means getting 'even more' for their money. I expect this to change. It will take time, but it will also I think come with a lot of people being priced out of western manufacture. Ten years ago, a brand like Five Star would never have been high thought of round here, but now, as it simple gets more expensive to buy from Western manufacturers, a lot of people are looking for less costly alternatives for what are, in the last instance, still luxury goods for most people.

everyone who work on sewing machine 9-5 for years could do a perfect straight line stitching, it is just how much time given to do it, if that person is normally working on making cheap pouches has to do hundreds of items by the end of the day, then they would do the best they can while being fast first try and perhaps here and there not really straight, but if this person is working on expensive item with more time to work on then I believe they can do as good as anyone else. it is just like in your computer visual setting either you set if for quality or set if for performance.

Yes, the design spec is all.

I think it is a fair game to reference a popular style from the past, especially when they are generic enough, I mean A2, cafe racer with slanted chest pockets, police jacket, crosszip, or crosszip Dpocket, any maker can throw a version with their own twist, there is still tons of intricacies to play with like pocket placement and angle, size of the pocket, detailing, throat latch, belt loop design, racing stripes, etc.

Doing a version of Snake Pliskin jacket is also a fair game as fair as doing Indiana Jones jacket, or capt america or wolverine jacket I think.

but taking a stitch by stitch copy of a specific design of another artist like Thedi is to me feels wrong and feels fake.
Since these high end Chinese manufacturers clearly thinking about the spirit or feel behind a design then why not trying to grab that spirit and put a twist in the same spirit.

rather than comparing FW and FW replicas, why not just throw throat latch, or zip sleeve, or dual chest pocket, or belt loop as "what if....wouldn't it be cooler if ..." kind of mindset.

Opinions will vary on where to draw the line, of course, though partly this is also market. An awful lot of people complained that Tokai "only made copy guitars", but when Tokai have produced some very innovative and original designs, guess what? Nobody who criticised them for making "copies" wanted those.

I have read everyone’s replies. In general, the status quo is like this.

The consumption habits of the vast majority of Chinese consumers and the experts on the FDL Forum are very different. Chinese consumers can't even distinguish these brands and models at all. They just saw pictures of well-known products such as FW Mulholland on the Internet and found them to be very cool & beautiful. But they couldn't accept the price of 2500+ USD, so they went to buy fw replicas. When there is demand, there will be a market, so Chinese leather clothing manufacturers are currently focusing on copying these well-known models. This is not only simple, but also easy to make money with high demand, why not do it ?

The relatively high-end Chinese leather garments have no problem with their technology and leather materials, but with a problem with the direction. They can only live in the shadow of others, and it is difficult to achieve breakthroughs and recognition. Only when the demand changes, that is, the more demanding part of the Chinese consumer group becomes more, can manufacturers transform and make personalized and original things. Of course, this must be a complementary process, only time to test

Thanks for these posts, it's really interesting to have someone "inside" China giving us that perspective. I've spent a fair bit of time in Beijing since 2006, but in truth - and this is primarily a language barrier thing - I've not managed to find anywhere selling the kind of stuff I'm into. I'd love to track somewhere selling Bronson and Bob Dong. I'm impressed with what they do at the price band; I suspect those are brands that have the potential to grow (I'd buy from them if they did my lao wai sizes.... at present, their trousers don't go over a 38" waist, and the jackets all seem to stop at about a size or two smaller than I'd need. I imagine in part that's dealing with market, as a lot of younger people simply are smaller, and many South East Asian men ten towards a slightly smaller frame than we in the West. With brands like that slowly becoming accepted as a more affordable alternative to the pricey Japanese stuff, I think there's potential there to expand the range. A decent, "mid-price" (300 or less) leather from one of those in a few years might find a market that an 'unknown' brand in the West might struggle to reach.

Ultimately, though, it's always going to come down to the market. I get the impression in the Beijing Area that imported brands have a cool cachet that locally made stuff doesn't (at least among the university kids and locally to our campuses), but international recognition of a Chinese brand might chance that a bit? Over here, it keeps coming back to what the market will buy; if the market demands cheaper "copies" - even if it then damns the Chinese manufacturer for the same - that's what makes business sense to produce.

 

[JMax]

It’s don’t recall anyone in this thread saying China makes crap.

 

[Edward]

It’s don’t recall anyone in this thread saying China makes crap.

Not here, no, but it's a common attitude in the wider world - and especially on the guitar forums I was talking about, even now.

 

[puiyc1203]

Replicating classic designs is very normal in all industries. If everyone can start from zero, then it is unnecessary to learn and experience.

As big eraser said heritage leather jacket in china is in early stage, because the market is small, even worse poor demand for Chinese leather jackets. The market is overwhelmed with Japanese and western jackets. But for a growing company, it was like a surgeon, you need to fail a few surgeries and cases of fatal medical negligence before you become an expert in certain profession. Learning and experiencing are rather important.
If ones keep impression of Chinese products as poor quality and refuse to give unbiased critics. That's the foolish of them.

Those hobbists of 50s died with old buco. For certain, by the time I pass away, brands like Freewheelers, real mccoys, Eastman would no longer stay in business. The replacing brands 40, 50 years later in the future are the young blood today. Therefore, be forward-looking and humble. Arrogance and ignorance do no harm to others but oneself.

 

[JMax]

It’s not the impression of poor quality that irks me. I mean, not every US maker is LW, Vanson or whatever. In my case, it’s not bigotry either, though some will see it as the reason for any critique. It’s the predatory business practices of many companies (not all of course), across all industry, that gives me pause. As seen earlier in this thread, using Thedi’s likeness is a small, possibly benign but still wrong, example of it.

 

[ton312]

It’s not the impression of poor quality that irks me. I mean, not every US maker is LW, Vanson or whatever. In my case, it’s not bigotry either, though some will see it as the reason for any critique. It’s the predatory business practices of many companies (not all of course), across all industry, that gives me pause. As seen earlier in this thread, using Thedi’s likeness is a small, possibly benign but still wrong, example of it.

Yes. Shameless use of other makers photography, product and likeness is deplorable. It’s also unnecessary. These are budget options and if marketed honestly and as such, they will be more successful. I’ve looked at these makers dozens of times, they have infiltrated every single corner of the web, auction apps etc. I would prefer a more honest approach, with actual product photos, as opposed to stolen images with blurred out makers labels. I have avoided reb_el b/c I have no actual idea what he is selling. I’m also not convinced he does either.

 

[TheDonEffect]

It’s not the impression of poor quality that irks me. I mean, not every US maker is LW, Vanson or whatever. In my case, it’s not bigotry either, though some will see it as the reason for any critique. It’s the predatory business practices of many companies (not all of course), across all industry, that gives me pause. As seen earlier in this thread, using Thedi’s likeness is a small, possibly benign but still wrong, example of it.

Absolutely, don't get me wrong, even after everything I said, I understand that Chinese industry has an earned reputation of blatant plagiarism among other nefarious business practices. It's one thing to reverse engineer (ie learn and copy) something, it's another thing to be the commissioned company to produce a product, and after you produce the contracted amount, to then continue the assembly line to produce more to sell on their own. And then get away with it due to corrupt government that selectively enforces laws. A western company didn't ask for them to produce more of their product and sell it on their own.

And not that my opinion should matter for anything, but I have full faith that those here on TFL will always seek out and support any artisan who makes a great product, I mean heck look at the support 5* is getting, and for contrast look at what sort of reactions SB still gets.

 

[JMax]

Absolutely, don't get me wrong, even after everything I said, I understand that Chinese industry has an earned reputation of blatant plagiarism among other nefarious business practices. It's one thing to reverse engineer (ie learn and copy) something, it's another thing to be the commissioned company to produce a product, and after you produce the contracted amount, to then continue the assembly line to produce more to sell on their own. And then get away with it due to corrupt government that selectively enforces laws. A western company didn't ask for them to produce more of their product and sell it on their own.

And not that my opinion should matter for anything, but I have full faith that those here on TFL will always seek out and support any artisan who makes a great product, I mean heck look at the support 5* is getting, and for contrast look at what sort of reactions SB still gets.

Absolutely, exactly. 5* is great example too.

 

[Canuck Panda]

In the past two weeks I had been addicted to the low prices on Taobao. This is what I found out about Made In China Brand Jackets. Hopefully by confessing my sins I can get out of this low prices addiction I just picked up.

1) Rebel is a reseller. His price is about 98% more than the original Taobao seller. What he offers is English communication, and Paypal payment method, and DHL shipping from Hong Kong.
2) Aliexpress vendors are also resellers. Their prices are on average 12% to 30% more than the original Taobao seller. What Aliexpress offers is English communication, Paypal payment method, and UPS/Fedex shipping from China.
3) Taobao also has a crap load of resellers. And they cost more than the original seller. Taobao does NOT take Paypal, only credit cards for foreign shoppers. It took me an entire weekend to set up an account on Taobao. I was persistent because I had a lot of spite for overpaying at Rebel and Aliexpress.

If someone knows the Cidu guy personally please ask him to come to this place, or at least add English Subs to his Taobao videos.

Everything everyone said about the Chinese Jackets are true. Rip off photos, blunt disregard for copyright laws...etc. Poverty is the worst form of violence. Wage inequality is the main reason behind the rule breaking. I understand why the things are the way they are. But it is still illegal. There will be feelings of guilt and shame when shopping on Taobao.

BUT

PRICES PRICES PRICES

The shipping cost was US $100 for all four jackets, in two separate packages of 3 Kg each. I expect to receive them in two weeks.

My overpaid Rebel and Aliexpress jackets will get here hopefully by end of the week. But I don't recommend paying more. To me, it's either do the Taobao thing with guilt and shame or not at all.

 

[Marc mndt]

There will be feelings of guilt and shame when shopping on Taobao.

What exactly makes you feel guilty or ashamed?

 

[Canuck Panda]

What exactly makes you feel guilty or ashamed?

Every time a product is outsourced to a developing country, the job in the developed country changes. This impacts families negatively that were depending on that old job. How would any of us feel if we have to unwillingly re-train for a new job? (the older we get the worse it becomes)
The wages in developing countries are fractions of wages in developed countries. China for example, has an average wage that is 1/3 to 1/4 to what it is in US today. And this used to be 1/6 to 1/8 in the early 2000's. Are any of us really so good at what we do that justify the wage difference? I don't think I am.
Between these two points lies all the copyright infringements, shady (grey) business ethics...etc.
Shopping from Taobao, is comparable to me going down to my local Reserves and buying salmons at fractions of the price. The Natives don't follow the same fishing quotas like local commercial fishermen. At the same time the people living on the reserves continue to live in poverty. I didn't wake up one day and decided to break the rules just to get cheap salmon. My neighbor brought me into it. That's life.

 

[MrProper]

In the past two weeks I had been addicted to the low prices on Taobao. This is what I found out about Made In China Brand Jackets. Hopefully by confessing my sins I can get out of this low prices addiction I just picked up.

1) Rebel is a reseller. His price is about 98% more than the original Taobao seller. What he offers is English communication, and Paypal payment method, and DHL shipping from Hong Kong.
2) Aliexpress vendors are also resellers. Their prices are on average 12% to 30% more than the original Taobao seller. What Aliexpress offers is English communication, Paypal payment method, and UPS/Fedex shipping from China.
3) Taobao also has a crap load of resellers. And they cost more than the original seller. Taobao does NOT take Paypal, only credit cards for foreign shoppers. It took me an entire weekend to set up an account on Taobao. I was persistent because I had a lot of spite for overpaying at Rebel and Aliexpress.

If someone knows the Cidu guy personally please ask him to come to this place, or at least add English Subs to his Taobao videos.

Everything everyone said about the Chinese Jackets are true. Rip off photos, blunt disregard for copyright laws...etc. Poverty is the worst form of violence. Wage inequality is the main reason behind the rule breaking. I understand why the things are the way they are. But it is still illegal. There will be feelings of guilt and shame when shopping on Taobao.

BUT

PRICES PRICES PRICES

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View attachment 364636
The shipping cost was US $100 for all four jackets, in two separate packages of 3 Kg each. I expect to receive them in two weeks.

My overpaid Rebel and Aliexpress jackets will get here hopefully by end of the week. But I don't recommend paying more. To me, it's either do the Taobao thing with guilt and shame or not at all.

I am curious whether the jackets actually look like the pictures. Somehow I am skeptical.
But since standard sizes don't fit me, that's out of the question for me anyway.
Good luck.