Calling out The National Guard (Pennsylvania) circa early 1900s

[deanglen]

Broken link on your second shot, on my screen. First shot looks cool!

dean

 

[Prairie Shade]

Here's the Rules

 

[Mojave Jack]

Prairie, I think something got lost in the translation!

I confirmed on their website today that Stratton's are fur felt. They don't say what kind of fur, but that's better than wool!

 

[Prairie Shade]

Rescued Stratton Hat #5

OK I am now officially retiring from the rescue effort. I have my stash and the rest of you can have an open field to run in!!! Picked it up for 25.00 pls shipping on a buy it now. I will have to become more adept at inserting pictures here. Tried cutting and pasting, 1 out of 3. Sorry for the little white boxes with an X. Wasnt exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[Joel Tunnah]

Dean, call your office

The History Channel is doing a three hour show on the Spanish American War tonight.

I hope you have cable!

 

[Pat_H]

Very fedoraesque wearing by week-end warriors of C******** Hats I'd say around 1902 or so. If anyone knows please post. Plus I'm kinda bored and just like this picture,


dean

Interesting photograph, coming after the PA guard had been issued Krags, and apparently just as the first khaki uniforms were coming in. I'm not an expert on the uniforms, but your placement in terms of date would be about right.

 

[Pat_H]

They look taller than the Infantry Leggings (Leggins to me). Could they be Horse Marines?? That would be a collectors item wouldnt it? By the by, I have "rescued" several Stratton Campaign and Sheriff style hats that work up just fine when you add a yellow hat cord. Price on Ebay is usually right also. I just hope no other "collectors" wear 7 3/8!!!

While you can find examples of mounted Marines, there was not such a thing as "Horse Marines", at least in the USMC. Mounted Marines, locally mounted, did occur in China and Central America, however. Indeed, you can find examples of mounted sailors in Central America. In terms of uniforms, while Marine officers wore breeches and boots during at least the mid 20th Century, Marines were issued a standard set of uniforms that did not specifically contemplate riding.

 

[Pat_H]

Those sheriff hats and trooper hats are essentially campaign hats and make great conversions, depending on the era one is looking at. pre-1911, I would go for 5/8" grograin and the bow which I have only seen on the pre-1911 campaign hats. Post 1911 would pretty much require only a pretty triangular montana peak, or "smokey" peak, like your old DI wore. Pat H. is my authority for the M1911 hat. I lean backward to the Frontier Army/Span-Am War era hats.

dean

Thanks Dean.

On M1911 hats, one thing to keep in mind about them is that they did change somewhat over time, even though the designation did not. Early hats had a somewhat higher crown than later ones did, and had some other features that were different from later hats.

 

[Pat_H]

I assume you fella's know that the Black Hat with Yellow Hat cord IS authorized headgear for the Cavalry now. Just thought I would throw that in since there has been some discussion about changing military headgear. Most Troopers have one I BELIEVE.

It isn't really authorized per se, but authorized on a unit level.

That may sound like a bit of a fine distinction, but what it means is that the current black "Stetson" (it isn't necessarily a Stetson) fits in the category of accepted items reflecting unit tradition, even though it is not an official Army item.

There's a really extensive thread on this topic on the Society of the Military Horse website, but to condense it, the cavalry black Stetson, along with Prince of Wales spurs, reflects a tradition dating back in U.S. Army cavalry units to the Vietnam War. At that time, Air Cavalry units, seeking to recall their cavalry heritage, looked back to the Frontier cavalry, skipping over the history of the cavalry of the 20th Century. Somewhat ironically, at least one very senior general of the Vietnam War had been a horse cavalryman very early in his career, and the concept of air cavalry did in fact have a mounted heritage.

At any rate, when these helicopter riding cavalrymen looked back, they adopted their concept of what a Frontier cavalryman had worn. This was based more on the television and movie image of a Frontier cavalryman, so movies and tv had a significant impact on what came to be adopted. However, the black Cavalry Stetson then came in as an unofficial item, and has been around every since. The appearance of it has changed somewhat over time, as the early Vietnam War era ones had more of a 60s appearance than the current ones do.

I'm not criticizing any of this, I should note. It's a valid established tradition now in Army cavalry units of all types. It isn't really official, but it is widely practiced within U.S. Army cavalry units, as is the ceremonial issuance of Prince of Wales spurs (which are not an old Army pattern).

 

[Pat_H]

The Military usually requires a Pot or now I guess Kevlar when actually in operations. The Black Hat is worn in garrison I believe. Anyone out there at Ft. Hood? If so, fill us in!!!!

From what I'm aware of, the use is sort of a ceremonial parade use, definitely not a field use. They have been taken overseas, however, and you can find photos of them in use by cavalrymen in Iraq and Iran, in garrison, at ceremonies of one kind or another.

The reference to the helmet is telling. Campaign hats, as campaign hats were the field hat for all uses, including combat, prior to the helmet. The helmet did them in, as they're hard to pack around if you are not wearing them. If you are wearing them, that is not a problem, and they'll protect your head wonderfully against the elements. They won't, of course, protect your head against shrapnel, and hence the helmet came in and the campaign hat went out.

That gave us the unfortunate hats that followed, for military use. No hat used by the U.S. Army since the campaign hat has been anywhere near as good looking.

 

[Pat_H]

From what I'm aware of, the use is sort of a ceremonial parade use, definitely not a field use. They have been taken overseas, however, and you can find photos of them in use by cavalrymen in Iraq and Iran, in garrison, at ceremonies of one kind or another.

The reference to the helmet is telling. Campaign hats, as campaign hats were the field hat for all uses, including combat, prior to the helmet. The helmet did them in, as they're hard to pack around if you are not wearing them. If you are wearing them, that is not a problem, and they'll protect your head wonderfully against the elements. They won't, of course, protect your head against shrapnel, and hence the helmet came in and the campaign hat went out.

That gave us the unfortunate hats that followed, for military use. No hat used by the U.S. Army since the campaign hat has been anywhere near as good looking.

Following on that, the campaign hat, or hats like campaign hats, were used by more armies than just the U.S. Army. Lots of other armies wore them as well.

Presently, at least a few of them hang on to these hats as dress hats or as unit dress hats. New Zealand Lemon Squeezer remains a dress hat in the NZ Army, and the Australian slouch hat remains a dress hat for some units, I believe, in the Australian army. The campaign hat remains a dress hat for the RCMP, as well as a dress hat of the Legion of Frontiersmen organziation. And of course American drill instructors wear them.

In terms of actual field use, they passed on in the U.S. Army during WWII, with cavalrymen being the last troops authorized to wear them in the field, although at least a few officers carried on wearing them who were not cavalrymen. Australian troops, of course, continued to wear the slouch hat during WWII, and maybe later, in the field, with some British troops wearing them as well, although probably not officially.

 

[Mojave Jack]

The History Channel is doing a three hour show on the Spanish American War tonight.

I hope you have cable!

Thanks for reminding me, Joel! I was just surfing along here when I saw your post. The odd thing is, I posted on it about 3 days ago! :eusa_doh: The VCR is running, though!

 

[Prairie Shade]

I'm CPT Jinks of the Horse Marines; I feed my horse on corn and beans

I believe I once saw a Breast Collar Medallion with the EAG on it. Any way, interesting observation. I noticed on the First Cavalry Division Association website under Cav Hat that their is the Cav MOI which prescribes its wear. It is not issue but is a private purchase item and authorized for wear as described in the MOI.

 

[Pat_H]

I believe I once saw a Breast Collar Medallion with the EAG on it. Any way, interesting observation. I noticed on the First Cavalry Division Association website under Cav Hat that their is the Cav MOI which prescribes its wear. It is not issue but is a private purchase item and authorized for wear as described in the MOI.

The breast collar was likely an item from some ceremonial unit.

You will find, however, Marine marked tack. It's not common, but you will occasionally find, for example, USMC marked stirrup hoods for M1904 McClellans. I've forgotten the details, but it does exist. The Saddles themseleves were made by the regular U.S. Army arsenals (or contractors) so presumably the markings were added there, or perhaps by a Marine designated as a saddler for a unit with mounts.

On the current hats, there's a flood of web information on them that isn't always accurate. Indeed, some of it is highly inaccurate. In general, however, both the PoW stirrups and the Stetsons are a unit item, unofficial, but widely used and accepted in cavalry units.

That's not as uncommon, I'd note as it might seem. There's a wide variety of military headgear that has seen unofficial use, sometimes with local tolerance under special provisions that themselves have official sanction. It's sort of a confusing area, but a good example of it is the wearing of black berets by armored units in Europe, in the U.S. Army, in the 70s. This was very widely done, and represented a program that allowed unit commanders to approve unofficial items, to bolster unit pride, within the units. This is the same thing that is done with the black Stetsons. In the case of the black berets in armored units (some of which were cavalry units) the practice was quite common, and also saw the issuance of some skill patches within those units, and the use of "tankers jackets", all on the same basis. The use of the black berets came to an end, however, as the Army approved their official use at some time in the 70s by Rangers. As we all know, the Army later went to black berets Army wide, and changed the Ranger beret to a sand color.

Except perhaps to servicemen and people who have an interest, this sort of hat use is all rather confusing. The gist of it is that the Army approves and allows unofficial headgear (and other items) in some contexts, but only within the units. In those units, the use of those items is a matter of great pride, and is taken very seriously. The spurs, for example, are conveyed in a ceremony and represent the attainment of a certain level of skill. However, as important as those items are within the units, the items must remain in use only within them. So, for example, it's almost necessary to have a Stetson in some cavalry units, but there's no authorization to wear them outside the units themselves.

 

[Pat_H]

Yikes. With that post (again on military hats) I've managed to go from Familiar Face to One of the Regulars. I wonder if I need to check into hat rehab?

 

[deanglen]

Yikes. With that post (again on military hats) I've managed to go from Familiar Face to One of the Regulars. I wonder if I need to check into hat rehab?

Regulars, By God!! http://1-22infantry.org/history/historytitle.htm

dean

 

[Red Beard]

I need to thank all the great folks who've been discussing this era of Military history on the Lounge, especially Mr. deanglen and Pat_H.
I've always had more than a passing interest in these times, but until seeing the pictures and hearing the enthusiasm in the discussions, I never really dove in. Now I'm buying books, researching all about it and having a great time doing it.

Thanks for the spark, guys!

 

[deanglen]

I need to thank all the great folks who've been discussing this era of Military history on the Lounge, especially Mr. deanglen and Pat_H.
I've always had more than a passing interest in these times, but until seeing the pictures and hearing the enthusiasm in the discussions, I never really dove in. Now I'm buying books, researching all about it and having a great time doing it.

Thanks for the spark, guys!

You have made my day, Red Beard! Glad to see the interest and appreciate your kind words! These guys send their regards:

dean

 

[deanglen]

A cobbler! Dean, that's brilliant! I know my cobbler, Del, pretty well, and he has done some work on my leather hat bands. I'll bet his machine could put in the edge stitching with no problem. I'll have to ask him about that.

Thanks for all the great info, too. I actually joined the Society of the Military Horse Forum about six months or a year ago, but keep forgetting about it. Now if I can remember what my password is... :eusa_doh:

Jack, have you contacted your cobbler yet about edge stitching?

dean

 

[deanglen]

More from the same original photo, i didn't post as first because one was a bit blurry, but the hats are just too good.

dean