California lawmaker proposes no spanking law.

[Feraud]

From Yahoo news-
California might dole out 1000 dollar fines or possible jail terms for disciplining your own child. What is the state coming to?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070119/lf_afp/uspoliticschildren_070119202053

"I think it's pretty hard to argue you need to beat a child three years old or younger," said Lieber, who plans to introduce the bill next week.

It isn't hard for me to argue. Have you ever been around three year olds??

 

[The Wingnut]

State - mandated child discipline.

'We won't tell you how to raise them, but we'll tell you how you can't raise them!'

Some people can't fathom the difference between correction and abuse. Such people shouldn't have a role in the way children are raised, their own or anyone else's.

 

[GOK]

It was proposed over here years and years ago, not sure if it ever became law. We have children's rights an' everything...and don't the little so and sos know it! Laws like this are open to abuse, just like most of them, so the question is, is it worth all the aggravation to genuinely good parents if it saves even a few children from being abused? I don't think so - there are already laws in place making the beating of children illegal...does the abuse stop? Of course it doesn't, so why should anyone delude themselves into believing that an anti-smacking law would work? Perhaps good parenting classes would be better? After all, you need a licence to get married, drive a car, own a gun....oh wait, people abuse those laws too! [huh]

Personally, I don't think it is ever right to smack a child (much less beat it).

 

[Matthew Dalton]

Perhaps good parenting classes would be better?

I'd say it'd go quite well. It seems to me when many parents don't give their kid a corrective smack they just don't manage to correct them at all...

The effects of that can be much worse for the child later in life than the "trauma" of light smack on the behind.

 

[Lincsong]

Before this thread gets locked down for being political; it's just another facet of communism. Taking children away from parents. The California Assembly is out and out RED!:rage: These are the same people who let their kids run freely like nuts, touching and spitting on everything. No discipline whatsoever, then they load the kid up on Ritalin.:rage: And that phony :eusa_doh: Swarzennegger :eusa_doh: will probably sign it.

GOK you made some excellent points, and if you think a child should never be smacked I have no argument with that, but like you said it shouldn't be legislated.

 

[Feraud]

I think most of us agree the various styles of child discipline are subjective and personal. We also agree parenting should not be legislated.
How does a bill like this even get close to being proposed or drafted?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Don't Tell Me NO

Let see..."Parenting Classes"..uh...defined and rules of disipline set up by whom? Classes to teach me the correct procedure for TimeOuts? Bah..and balderdash! I've delt with four 2 year olds that I've loved dearly. Taking the time to continually argue over and over with a youngster that "no means no" is obsurd. Putting family and friends through that never ending battle of wills only wears out everyone's welcome and leaves most shaking their heads in disgust. I've spanked my 12 yr old son maybe three or four times in his life...Flipped his "reaching for a nono" hand about the same...and all around the 2-3 yr old great learning span. He did learn that he didn't like it...I didn't like it...but in order to maintain order..I certainly would...and he still knows it. If not,I would only be cheating him. I don't insist that everyone must follow this technique....but if it's ruled completely out..it seems everyone is then unfairly expected to put up with the results.
HD

 

[Elaina]

I have hit my child the less then the fingers on one hand in nearly 8 years of life. I have done so, and I will do so.

Unfortunately, go shopping sometime. How many people hit their kids from the car to the door and all the way through the store to boot?

 

[reetpleat]

Well, as a dissenter, I just have to chime in. I do not believe it is ever appropriate to inflict physical pain on any person, old or young.

And mark my words, in fifty years, most of society will look back on the times when spanking was comonly done as barbaric. While some holdouts still might do it, the vast majority will not.

I am not saying those who do are right or wrong. Just my prediction.

And as far as weather the state has a right to step in and tell you how to parent, where do you draw the line? what is and isn't okay for parents. The state does have a vested interest in protecting young people from abuse as defined by the status quo.

 

[Lincsong]

Feraud, this crap gets legislated because people pay no attention whatsoever to elections and creeps like this woman get in. She probably campaigned on what a great job she did playing piano at a retirement center, or picking up trash at a beach.lol
I have no argument if someone feels that spanking is inappropriate. Where my concern lies is in "legislating". This half-witted Assemblywoman is attempting to impose Stalinist dogma on Americans. Children are already protected from abuse. No one is going to argue that beating a child senseless or until he's got welts on his back is justifiable. Anyone who does that had better hope the Police get to them before I do. But, this woman wants to ban all forms of physical discipline and she has no business doing that other than to further her extreme agenda.

 

[Staggerly]

I agree with reetpleat. I think history will judge us harshly that we even had this debate. And hey, I got spanked in the Piggly Wiggly once for putting jars of peanut butter in the shopping cart -- and I like peanut butter more than ever! Spanking is a poor deterrent! lol

 

[Kt Templar]

Spare the rod spoil the child.

In the UK we've had many years of this kind of wooly thinking and I think are paying the price with hoards of feral children as young as 5 or 6 running around the town centres and residential streets in the evenings making a nuisance of themselves. They have no concept of right or wrong and absolutely no respect for authority or other peoples' property.

 

[Jack Scorpion]

Ah! Politics!

It reminds me of that Russell Peters bit and, of course, Bill Cosby stand up.

 

[GOK]

Spare the rod spoil the child.

In the UK we've had many years of this kind of wooly thinking and I think are paying the price with hoards of feral children as young as 5 or 6 running around the town centres and residential streets in the evenings making a nuisance of themselves. They have no concept of right or wrong and absolutely no respect for authority or other peoples' property.

Whilst I cannot disagree with you vis a vis our ASBO culture over here, I don't think this is solely to do with whether a child is smacked or not. Discipline is far more than using physical violence.

If A Child Lives With. . .by Dorothy Law Nolte

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.
If a child lives with fear, he learns to be apprehensive.
If a child lives with jealousy, he learns to feel guilt.
If a child lives with tolerance, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns to be confident.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to be appreciative.
If a child lives with acceptance, he learns to love.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with recognition, he learns that it is good to have a goal.
If a child lives with honesty, he learns what truth is.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to trust in himself and others .
If a child lives with friendliness, he learns the world is a nice place in which to live.

OK, there are always exceptions to the rule but I find that genrally, the above makes sense.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

I worked for Children's Services in Iowa and also in San Diego. I have friends who have been social workers in those agencies.

The problem with spanking and hitting is that parents don't always understand their own strengths and hurt children, others believe they have the right to inflict pain and even damage on their children. They hit, but don't know when to stop. Or they get so angry, they don't want to stop.

We had several types of abusers -- the easiest to work were young, sometimes military parents, isolated, away from their families, barely out of childhood themselves, who thought only in terms of corporal punishment. When given parenting classes, they were able to understand that no, you cannot shake a 7-month old baby to make it stop crying in the middle of the night and you should never strike a child in the face as you can damage ears, faces, and cause brain damage. Nor do you use hard objects on children, which could bruise them or break bones.

Then, we had the out-and-out psychotics, the kind who thought god told them to put their child in the oven to bake Satan out of them. Some were on drugs and hit until a child was severely injured, or dead.

There were also some religious folks who felt they had the right to break their kids' arm to teach them to "fear god."

These latter two are the hardest to work with, the psychotics pretty much impossible.

I am not sure passing a law will help unless they also require all new parents to take parenting classes. They can then learn to discipline without using physical force. They can also learn that consistency is very important. Many kids you see running wild on the streets have had inconsistent parenting, or none at all. The child gets confused and does not develop boundaries needed for good socialization.

karol

 

[reetpleat]

I worked for Children's Services in Iowa and also in San Diego. I have friends who have been social workers in those agencies.

The problem with spanking and hitting is that parents don't always understand their own strengths and hurt children, others believe they have the right to inflict pain and even damage on their children. They hit, but don't know when to stop. Or they get so angry, they don't want to stop.

We had several types of abusers -- the easiest to work were young, sometimes military parents, isolated, away from their families, barely out of childhood themselves, who thought only in terms of corporal punishment. When given parenting classes, they were able to understand that no, you cannot shake a 7-month old baby to make it stop crying in the middle of the night and you should never strike a child in the face as you can damage ears, faces, and cause brain damage. Nor do you use hard objects on children, which could bruise them or break bones.

Then, we had the out-and-out psychotics, the kind who thought god told them to put their child in the oven to bake Satan out of them. Some were on drugs and hit until a child was severely injured, or dead.

There were also some religious folks who felt they had the right to break their kids' arm to teach them to "fear god."

These latter two are the hardest to work with, the psychotics pretty much impossible.

I am not sure passing a law will help unless they also require all new parents to take parenting classes. They can then learn to discipline without using physical force. They can also learn that consistency is very important. Many kids you see running wild on the streets have had inconsistent parenting, or none at all. The child gets confused and does not develop boundaries needed for good socialization.

karol

As mentioned, a lot of comedians get a lot of laughs talking about their mothers "putting the fear of god in them" Trowing shoes, beating you into next week etc. And it can be funny till you think about what they are saying.

Certainly, a smack on the butt of a toddler to get his attention will not damage a kid forever. But where do you draw the line and who decides. Most people would say, "I know the difference and I should be left alone. But taht person over there must be stopped from abusing their child." This is the position the state is constantly in. They can't let everyone decide for themsel es when some of them will not act appropriately.

A last thought. Say what you will about kids running wild in the streets because they never got any discipline, but I would argue that at least fifty percent of them got the hell beat out of them by bad parents. Especially the violent ones.

 

[Lincsong]

KD has made some excellent points and examples. All of which are already covered under existing laws. What this law assumes is that ALL parents should be prohibited from spanking their children and that only the STATE should decide. This is not creeping communism it is outright communism, that children should be taken away from their parents, and should be raised by people such as this Assemblywoman. That, is what I find offensive. Child abuse is already covered under existing law. This proposed law is an abuse of the legislative process.

Drugging up a 6 year old on Ritalin is more psychologolically, mentally and physically detrimental than a spanking. Who should decide on discipline? The parents. Where to draw the line? We've already covered that with examples of abuse.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Lincsong you are right on....
HD

 

[reetpleat]

KD has made some excellent points and examples. All of which are already covered under existing laws. What this law assumes is that ALL parents should be prohibited from spanking their children and that only the STATE should decide. This is not creeping communism it is outright communism, that children should be taken away from their parents, and should be raised by people such as this Assemblywoman. That, is what I find offensive. Child abuse is already covered under existing law. This proposed law is an abuse of the legislative process.

Drugging up a 6 year old on Ritalin is more psychologolically, mentally and physically detrimental than a spanking. Who should decide on discipline? The parents. Where to draw the line? We've already covered that with examples of abuse.

I have seen a lot of kids that I wish could be taken away from their parents. I have no problem with the state placing child protection over so called "parental rights."

And secondly, as someone with ADD, I think ritalin and other medication, although they don't work for me, are a agodsend to many children who would otherwise have problems in school, and probably get beaten by their well meaning parents to put the fear of god in them.

 

[carebear]

Lincsong,

It isn't communism per se, call it by its proper name, totalitarianism or tyranny. This sort of "society (us in power) will tell you what's best" comes equally from the right and left of the political spectrum. Calling it "communism" gives the totalitarians on the right who claim to be "conservatives" an out.

As for those who say "well, this should be legislated"; I challenge you to find one "reasonable restriction" that has not been used as justification to gradually increase state control over the individual. You won't be able to.

State control is ALWAYS evil. It ALWAYS results in increasing tyranny and lack of freedom.

There are laws against abuse. Those who abuse anything, children, animals or any personal freedom should be dealt with as individuals. Preemptive, "for your own good" legislation is the worst sort of arrogance.

Who are you people to say "Well, I'm perfect, it's those people who need to be controlled"? That is not only patently elitist, it is self-defeating. You give the government the power to interfere in what you disapprove of, history shows when "your guys" get out of power the next group will use your precedent to trample over something you view as a personal right or freedom.

The only way to be safe is to deal with people as individuals and keep the government out of our lives. Let the laws on assault and abuse do the work as needed.

Individual freedom is far more important, long term, than any supposed increase in safety.