BUZZ RICKSON B2 FLIGHT JACKET

[PADDY]

Spot on.

It's an original M445a US Navy Aviator flight jacket from WWII. Mint condition (which is rare, as are these shearlings now, as the sea salt air often trashed the leather, so they are few and far between), but sadly not getting much wear[huh]

 

[Smithy]

It's an original M445a US Navy Aviator flight jacket from WWII. Mint condition (which is rare, as are these shearlings now, as the sea salt air often trashed the leather, so they are few and far between), but sadly not getting much wear[huh]

For some reason, original Irvins seem to have stood up better over time than the original sheepskin American jackets. Something to do with quality of the fleeces used perhaps?

 

[nightandthecity]

Edward, I ruined myself financially years ago....NOW I'M GOING TO DRAG YOU DOWN AS WELL!! (maniacal laughter)

best thing is to stay away from the Lounge, and don't even think of going near the Aero or ELC websites!

But as you will of course ignore this advice......

regarding sheepskin jackets: up to around 10-15 years ago I seemed to live in alternating Irvins, AN-J-4s and B-3s from September to May, but winters seem much warmer now and I find they don't actually get much use any more. So in purely practical terms the lighterweight D-1 is a very sensible buy, and its also a very stylish design.

 

[nightandthecity]

For some reason, original Irvins seem to have stood up better over time than the original sheepskin American jackets. Something to do with quality of the fleeces used perhaps?

I actually used to deal a lot in WW2 jackets, and must have had hundreds through my hands. I stopped buying US Navy shearlings in the end because so many of them were rotting and simply fell apart.

AAF shearlings were better, but often showed the same problem of irreversible rot.

Irvins, however, could usually be relied on! When they were falling apart it was usually from good honest wear.

One thing that really struck me about the US jackets was the correlation between serious rot and lack of use. It seemed the more "mint" the jacket the more likely it was to fall apart. The good US sheepskin jackets were the ones that had actually and visibly seen some use. You could draw several different conclusions from that of course.

 

[Smithy]

Thanks Nightandthecity, it was something that I had noticed over time.

Be interested to know whether someone in the know can give us some concrete reasons for this apparent difference between Irvins and US sheepskin flying jackets.

 

[PADDY]

D-1 (photos)

Anyone think this looks original?

Well it looks like a well worn original, but is made by RMNZ (Real McCoys) and is a beaut of a jacket (these pics are from a few years back). I no longer have it, but I'm sure it went through the hands of Estevan (a member here) at some point after I had it.

The jacket scene gets incestuous gents!! you start seeing the same jackets coming around like 'pass the parcel!'

Nice 'beginning of winter/end of autumn' beater!

 

[Edward]

Edward, I ruined myself financially years ago....NOW I'M GOING TO DRAG YOU DOWN AS WELL!! (maniacal laughter)

best thing is to stay away from the Lounge, and don't even think of going near the Aero or ELC websites!

But as you will of course ignore this advice......

regarding sheepskin jackets: up to around 10-15 years ago I seemed to live in alternating Irvins, AN-J-4s and B-3s from September to May, but winters seem much warmer now and I find they don't actually get much use any more. So in purely practical terms the lighterweight D-1 is a very sensible buy, and its also a very stylish design.

Yeah the D1 could be a real option.... I think the A2 has to come first (along with a few other things), then I might end up with a D1; maybe I'll hang on for a used bargain on a B2 after that. I don't want to duplicate too many different things, but that would seem a nice trio (and no inconceivable that one guy in the service back then would have had them all in the wardrobe?).

Paddy, great photos of that D1, I like that look a lot. Like a mini-me B3, pretty much!

 

[Estevan]

Yeah the D1 could be a real option.... I think the A2 has to come first (along with a few other things), then I might end up with a D1; maybe I'll hang on for a used bargain on a B2 after that. I don't want to duplicate too many different things, but that would seem a nice trio (and no inconceivable that one guy in the service back then would have had them all in the wardrobe?).

Paddy, great photos of that D1, I like that look a lot. Like a mini-me B3, pretty much!

Yup, it stayed in my hands for about 2 minutes, didn't like the fit. It looks nice, but as for the "feel" of the jacket, it's feels fake. Kinda like a "pleather" imitation. Some of these jackets come and go and then there are others that will never leave. I believe it also belonged to BT and he actually made the bombs using a piece of cut raw potato as a stamp. Anyway, looks nice but IMO that's about all. Sorry.

 

[Edward]

Yup, it stayed in my hands for about 2 minutes, didn't like the fit. It looks nice, but as for the "feel" of the jacket, it's feels fake. Kinda like a "pleather" imitation. Some of these jackets come and go and then there are others that will never leave. I believe it also belonged to BT and he actually made the bombs using a piece of cut raw potato as a stamp. Anyway, looks nice but IMO that's about all. Sorry.

I always hope for folks on eBay who get disappointed by the stuff I'm after.... some of my best bargains come that way!

 

[Estevan]

I always hope for folks on eBay who get disappointed by the stuff I'm after.... some of my best bargains come that way!

I never bought this Edward, it was sent to me to see if I liked it, I think we split the postage if I remember. Just wasn't my kind of jacket.

 

[Edward]

I never bought this Edward, it was sent to me to see if I liked it, I think we split the postage if I remember. Just wasn't my kind of jacket.

Diff'rent Strokes and all that!

Anyone have any views on the D1 as opposed to the B6? Looks to me like the sole difference lies in the pocket configuration......? (wasn't the B6 a stop gap on to something else as well?)

Funny how quickly a whole world has opened up here.... I remember when I saw Memphis Belle I knew only of two jackets: the A2 and the Irvin. I must have seen B3s (or 2s?) and assumed that the airmen wearing them had acquired them in England for wearing them in the cold skies! It's amazing the variations there are...

 

[Rufus]

Hi Edward,

My apologies for a much delayed reply. I was back in Belfast teaching for a week at the Art College.

I draw for 2000ad (A Sci-Fi UK Comic, Judge Dredd), and for IDW, a US Comics Company, drawing Tank Girl-The Gifting, and the last 4 Metal Gear Solids (out now...Hurray!).

I bought a B2 as I wanted a nice 1930s style heavy winter jacket, with a more formal construction than my previous Irvins. I had an original, an Aero and an Aerocraft (I've forgotten their name, the chaps who make them under license.)

If you can find one on Ebay, go for an original Irvin, much more characterful, and oddly often cheaper.
If I was to by a repro again, I'd stump for an Eastman, as they appear to be closer to the originals.

I love th B2, it's more like a heavy MC jacket, with an aviational slant to the detailing. I think the Irvin would ne warmer though, they can't be beat.

Paddy's jacket collection looks amazing, I love the M445. Wow.. sigh...

rufus

 

[Edward]

My apologies for a much delayed reply. I was back in Belfast teaching for a week at the Art College.

Ah! How is the place these days? I used to walk past it on the way in to Queens every day - past the student workdesks. There used to be some very interesting stuff in there!

I draw for 2000ad (A Sci-Fi UK Comic, Judge Dredd), and for IDW, a US Comics Company, drawing Tank Girl-The Gifting, and the last 4 Metal Gear Solids (out now...Hurray!).

Metal Gear Solid...... doesn't that have a tie-in video game? Tank Girl I remember picking up a few of when it first came out in a UK edition, but it wasn't one I ever really got into. Dredd I always loved - used to get 2000AD on an off, the Dredd Megazine, and a lot of the reprinted US format stuff (if I remember rightly, they downsized them ,which changed the image only very slightly, and colourised them). Comics got to be an expensive hobby for me, though, and I kinda dropped away a few years ago - more recently, I've gotten into The Walking Dead (can't remember the writer's name, annoyingly...), and I've started picking up the reissued Dredd stuff (Judge Dredd Casebooks series) - I don't know how fast that is catching up with the newer stuff though. I think it's great they've kept the Mega City man going - I must catch up with some of the newer stuff. I always loved how it satirised 20th/21st Century trends in the guise of being the future, all through the eyes of such a sullen anti-hero.

I bought a B2 as I wanted a nice 1930s style heavy winter jacket, with a more formal construction than my previous Irvins. I had an original, an Aero and an Aerocraft (I've forgotten their name, the chaps who make them under license.)
If you can find one on Ebay, go for an original Irvin, much more characterful, and oddly often cheaper.
If I was to by a repro again, I'd stump for an Eastman, as they appear to be closer to the originals.
I love th B2, it's more like a heavy MC jacket, with an aviational slant to the detailing. I think the Irvin would ne warmer though, they can't be beat.

Would that funds were extensive enough to cover all bases! By the sound of things, the B2 is closer my thing than the Irvin if it fits more like an mc, and London winters are mild enough that I seem to be ok without anything too full on.... that said, if ever I ended up spending a lot of time back in Belfast or New York in the winter...... brrr!

Paddy's jacket collection looks amazing, I love the M445. Wow.. sigh...

rufus

Yeah, some great stuff there!

 

[PADDY]

Rufus...

Are you an Ulsterman as well? If so, we have our own little club in here by the looks of things (it's a wee stable closet off the main bar!! abit like in the Crown Bar!!). There's Ken, like myself originally from Holywood and went to Campbell too). Plus there's Edward.

Right, off for some Guinness and Strangford Oysters.

PS: Thanks for the kind remarks on the jacket. The M445 is a stunner, you can tell just by the workmanship that the USN had a bigger budget on clothing than the USAAF (of course the USN had smaller numbers of aviators).

 

[Rufus]

Hi Paddy and Edward,

The art college has had an extensive and expensive refit...far to good for students methinks!

I'm in Belfast and Derry irregularily, for work, and err..drinking. Often at the same time. An' they say us men can't multitask!

I lived in Tyrone, nowhere cosmopolitan, and have lived in London for years.

I've got more art on my Myspace page, if you want to see what some looks like. check my blog as well for preview art.

http://www.myspace.com/rufusdayglo

I must get a M445...they're beautiful...

I was bidding on a black MC Hercules over the weekend, but got blown out the water. I'm a size 38-40, but sdaly so are most Japanese collectors...

Rufus

 

[Alan Eardley]

Diff'rent Strokes and all that!

Anyone have any views on the D1 as opposed to the B6? Looks to me like the sole difference lies in the pocket configuration......? (wasn't the B6 a stop gap on to something else as well?) <snip>

Edward,

The D-1 and B-6 are completely different jackets! Comparing the two is like comparing a sack (the D-1) to a tailored jacket (the B-6). The B-6 is the most intricate of the USAAF jackets ITO construction and design (and I include the ANJ - 4 in that). It is a sheepskin work of art.

Some D-1s don't have pockets, BTW.

Alan

 

[Fletch]

Anyone have any views on the D1 as opposed to the B6? Looks to me like the sole difference lies in the pocket configuration......? (wasn't the B6 a stop gap on to something else as well?)

The B-6 (for aircrew) and D-1 (for groundcrew) were lighter weight than the B-3, with 1/4" shearling lining instead of 1/2". The B-6 and the matching flight trou (A-6?) were stop gap in the sense of an "intermediate" garment, to be worn when the B-3 and A-3 were too warm or impeded movement. Waistgunners in particular preferred the B-6, which they wore over a heated flightsuit - even tho they faced an open hatch with windchills too low to compute, they needed the flexibility. The Navy BuAer also adopted an intermediate shearling jacket in the M-444, counterpart to the M-445.

Funny how quickly a whole world has opened up here.... I remember when I saw Memphis Belle I knew only of two jackets: the A2 and the Irvin. I must have seen B3s (or 2s?) and assumed that the airmen wearing them had acquired them in England for wearing them in the cold skies! It's amazing the variations there are...

You probably never saw a B-2 in a movie, or even in an war photo. They were made only in small numbers in the early 1930s and were replaced by the B-3 beginning in 1934. Except for the completist passion of Japanese jacket fans they would be totally forgotten.

 

[Alan Eardley]

The B-2

...and, it goes without saying, the B-2 was developed by Leroy Leslie Irving, father of the Irvinsuit.

Alan

 

[Edward]

Edward,

The D-1 and B-6 are completely different jackets! Comparing the two is like comparing a sack (the D-1) to a tailored jacket (the B-6). The B-6 is the most intricate of the USAAF jackets ITO construction and design (and I include the ANJ - 4 in that). It is a sheepskin work of art.

Some D-1s don't have pockets, BTW.

Alan

is this a personal opinion, or what's it based on? They did look pretty similar to me, though it seems that the B6 wasn't issued very widely? I only discovered it on... I think it was the Eastman site, they have one in their range. Prior to that I was aware of the D1 ground crew jacket and that a lot of the flyboys preferred those over the bulkier B3s and would swap them (welcome to the ground crew who were out in all weathers and would appreciate the B3, not having to work in a cramped cockpit or gun turret). I presume if a lot of flyboys were trying to get hold of D1s, they can't jhave had access to the B6 jacket which was intended for use in the air?

The B-6 (for aircrew) and D-1 (for groundcrew) were lighter weight than the B-3, with 1/4" shearling lining instead of 1/2". The B-6 and the matching flight trou (A-6?) were stop gap in the sense of an "intermediate" garment, to be worn when the B-3 and A-3 were too warm or impeded movement. Waistgunners in particular preferred the B-6, which they wore over a heated flightsuit - even tho they faced an open hatch with windchills too low to compute, they needed the flexibility. The Navy BuAer also adopted an intermediate shearling jacket in the M-444, counterpart to the M-445.

Makes sense to have an in-between like that, yeah - must have been conditions when the A2 was not heavy enough, and the B3 too heavy. A Goldilocks jacket was needed...

You probably never saw a B-2 in a movie, or even in an war photo. They were made only in small numbers in the early 1930s and were replaced by the B-3 beginning in 1934. Except for the completist passion of Japanese jacket fans they would be totally forgotten.

Ah, I didn't realise they were that limited. I do have a slight preference for the look of the B2 over the B3... as in, I prefer the B2 for sure, but if a B3 came along at a few hundred less...

I'm learning a lot here.... I'm tempted to go buy myself some further reading material!

 

[Alan Eardley]

is this a personal opinion, or what's it based on? They did look pretty similar to me, though it seems that the B6 wasn't issued very widely?

Edward,

My statement is based on simple observation. If you examine a D-1 you will see that it has few features such as waist adjustment or shoulder tabs (some don't even have pockets) and is of a very simple 'straight' construction. The B-6 has a number of features that the D-1 lacks (e.g. a bi-swing back, unique hip adjustement zips and epaulettes) and is much more shaped. Even the throat latch of the B-6 is more complicated. I guess the D-1 was built to a price, being 'only' for ground crew.

The B-6 was a common enough jacket among fighter pilots if photographs are anything to go by (particularly in P-38s) although by 1944 the most common jackets were the alpaca lined cloth jobs.

Alan