BATTER UP!

[Fading Fast]

I think it was entirely Landis's intention to ban the players permanently from all aspects of the game, not just from playing the game or just for the duration of their lifetime. The current Major League Rules state that "a player or other person on the Ineligible List shall not be eligible to play or associate with any Major or Minor League Club." I think that is consistent with the Black Sox, and expressly with Rose. There was never any intention for the ban to have a expiration date, except through the codified reinstatement mechanism.

I am drawing a parallel, not arguing either way. The reason some argue for the death penalty versus "life without parole" is that no matter what a judge or jury rules today - and no matter what society thinks today - years / decades later, a new judge, jury and new societal views can always reduce that "life without parole" sentence.

Landis, like a judge or jury today, cannot control what happens when they are no longer in power. Again - I'm not saying this is right or wrong - just drawing out what I think is an interesting parallel.

 

[Fading Fast]

In the world of pro tennis, Maria Sharapova was spanked for taking
substance that was a no-no according
to the tennis federation. The sentence
was changed and she played in the US
Open @ NY.
Some of the fellow players felt this was
wrong.
That she should've been banned from
playing pro tennis.

And, as always, facts and circumstances. The substances she took used to not be banned. She has a medical condition that uses that substance as treatment and she was doing that back before the substance was banned (i.e., doesn't look like a convenient after-the-fact excuse). But she received a letter telling her the substance was banned and a professional at her level should be aware of rule changes - especially of that magnitude. She lost 16 months of play - was that enough? I don't know, but again, if we want a speed limit rule - she's out / if we want to weigh evidence and facts and circumstance with compassion for sentencing, maybe it was fair.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I am drawing a parallel, not arguing either way. The reason some argue for the death penalty versus "life without parole" is that no matter what a judge or jury rules today - and no matter what society thinks today - years / decades later, a new judge, jury and new societal views can always reduce that "life without parole" sentence.

Landis, like and judge or jury today, cannot control what happens when they are no longer in power. Again - I'm not saying this is right or wrong - just drawing out what I think is an interesting parallel.

Understood. That's just a common argument for reinstatement...that they were "banned for life" and their sentence should automatically be commuted upon their death. In reality, they were "banned forever". There has always been a reinstatement mechanism, but none of the Black Sox or Rose has ever been successful in getting reinstated. Several other players have, however, including the aforementioned Mays and Mantle.

 

[2jakes]

I'll go by Lizzie's ruling when she becomes dictator!

 

[Fading Fast]

I'll go by Lizzie's ruling when she becomes dictator!

I'll have already been shot in the back of the head for "thoughts antithetical to the good of the state" by the time she gets around to ruling on SJJ.

 

[2jakes]

I'll have already been shot in the back of the head for "thoughts antithetical to the good of the state" by the time she gets around to ruling on SJJ.

Polo will light a candle in your honor!

 

[Fading Fast]

Polo will light a candle in your honor!

That will provide great comfort as I hear the click of the trigger.

 

[2jakes]

That will provide great comfort as I hear the click of the trigger.

Polo thinks your avatar name is very apropo!

 

[2jakes]

 

[LizzieMaine]

My methods of execution will be nowhere near as coarse. I'll simply put you in a room with current Red Sox broadcaster Dave O'Brien, and let him bore you to death.

As to the Black Sox, I think one thing that often gets left out of the debate is the context of how baseball and gambling interacted in the 1910s. In the Gandil article I posted earlier, he made a self-serving yet still very valid point when he talked about how ballplayers and gamblers freely mixed at the time, and how casual the whole intersection of baseball and betting really was. The Eight Men were not the only ballplayers of their era to have tanked games, nor were they, as recent research suggests, the only players of their period to tank a World Series. Some of the men who are now suspected of having participated in game fixing at various times are now in the HOF, and there isn't any serious movement to expel them. But that being the case, an eternal ban against the Black Sox seems a bit selective.

Even in Landis's own lifetime there seemed to be more wiggle room than people realize -- Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were both accused of gambling-related improprieties in 1926, with some pretty substantial evidence of incidents dating back to 1917, and the result was, basically, a coverup. Landis, like Comiskey before him, didn't want it known just how deep the tendrils of gambling and game-fixing really ran in baseball, and was content for the Eight Men, along with a few other small fry like Joe Gedeon and Shufflin' Phil Douglas, to remain the severed heads impaled on the ballpark wall as a warning to any future players who might consider the temptations put before them. I think that's the main reason he was so absolutely militant in refusing any and all pleas for reinstatement that he got from Jackson, Weaver, and Felsch, who were the only three who actually kept trying.

And I do think the question of remorse ought to enter into posthumous considerations. There's ample testimony to the effect that Jackson, Weaver, Cicotte, Felsch and Williams were genuinely and honestly remorseful over what happened, and that they at least at some level understood the real extent of the crime. Gandil, from the two late-life interviews he gave, seemed to owned up to his responsibility to some degree, even though he wasn't exactly repentant. McMullin disappeared into obscurity and never seems to have mentioned his feelings about what happened one way or another -- but he is said to have written out a document about the events of 1919 to be released after all the Eight were dead. Instead, his widow destroyed it.

Of the Eight, that leaves only Risberg as the one man who either didn't get it or didn't care, and kept a defiant attitude for the rest of his life without ever acknowledging his guilt or conceding anything to anyone.

Swede Risberg and Joe Jackson were accused of the same thing, and were punished in the same way for the same thing. But morally speaking, were Risberg and Jackson truly on the same plane?

 

[Fading Fast]

My methods of execution will be nowhere near as coarse. I'll simply put you in a room with current Red Sox broadcaster Dave O'Brien, and let him bore you to death...

Thank you, but I'll take the bullet to the back of the head please - it's much quicker and more merciful.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I'll have already been shot in the back of the head for "thoughts antithetical to the good of the state" by the time she gets around to ruling on SJJ.

I'm hoping she keeps me around just to talk baseball. Lord knows it won't be for my handsome good looks and boyish charm.

 

[Harp]

As to the Black Sox, an eternal ban against the Black Sox seems a bit selective.

And I do think the question of remorse ought to enter into posthumous considerations. There's ample testimony to the effect that Jackson, Weaver, Cicotte, Felsch and Williams were genuinely and honestly remorseful over what happened, and that they at least at some level understood the real extent of the crime.

Swede Risberg and Joe Jackson were accused of the same thing, and were punished in the same way for the same thing. But morally speaking, were Risberg and Jackson truly on the same plane?

Boiled down to the brass tacks there certainly is considerable argument justifying posthumous pardon; however, sentiment does not obviate factual evidence,
nor easily allow severally condone for such landmark historical occurrence. And a particular baseball field forever remains a faceted diamond.

 

[Ghostsoldier]

The Swede was a hard guy.

Rob

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Ewing Field

Not sure where....Boston, perhaps?

Rob

 

[LizzieMaine]

Hetzel's Rubber Roof Company seems to have been a Newark company, so that might be a good guess. It doesn't look like any of the Boston wooden-era parks.

Newark had a team in the Federal League in 1915, and were otherwise a mainstay of the International League up thru the first half of the 20th Century. This is definitely not Ruppert Stadium, where the Newark Bears played in the 1930s and 40s, but it might be one of the earlier wooden parks in that city.

 

[2jakes]

Not sure where....Boston, perhaps?
View attachment 85290
Rob

Newark. This is another view.

Meadowbrook Oval in Newark (sometimes known as Asylum Oval and Meadowbrook Field), used by various professional teams at least through the 1930's. Apparently was used by the Eastern League in the '10's (by the Newark Indians), by the Newark Bears of the International League in at least 1924 into 1925, and Negro League teams in the '30's - the Newark Browns of the East-West League in 1932, and the Newark Dodgers of the Negro National League in 1934-1935. Sources list the outfield dimensions as 300 in LF, 380 in CF and 300 in RF, with a 12' outfield fence.


Lizzie was on the right track. The huge Hetzel’s ad was the key.
I went on the search engine for Hetzel’s Roof Cement and this can
from Newark came up. The trail led to the baseball stadium.

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Great work, guys...it's just one photo of many in my collection, that doesn't have any identifiable information...I know I can count on you folks to solve the mystery!

Rob

 

[Fading Fast]

... View attachment 85310
Lizzie was on the right track. The huge Hetzel’s ad was the key.
I went on the search engine for Hetzel’s Roof Cement and this can
from Newark came up. The trail led to the baseball stadium.

Should have branched out into the pretzel business.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The most flamboyant version of the South End Grounds in Boston, home of the Red Stockings/Beaneaters/Doves/Rustlers/Braves until the construction of Braves Field in 1915. This particular phantasmagoria burned to the ground, along with much of the surrounding neighborhood, in 1894, and was rebuilt in a decidedly less fabulous style. The site is now a parking lot.