BATTER UP!

[Harp]

It's all brutally unfair because who really knows where the line is - how much and what type of cheating is allowed?

If Zeno were alive today, he'd be a White Sox fan. Heraclitus would definitely be a Cub guy.

 

[2jakes]

Cubs, playing as the Leland Giants.

“Polo” arguing with the ump!

 

[Fading Fast]

If Zeno were alive today, he'd be a White Sox fan. Heraclitus would definitely be a Cub guy.

It would have to be closer to when I took my exams on ancient Greek philosophers (30+ years ago) for me to really get the nuances you're making, but have no doubt they are sharp and funny.

 

[Harp]

View attachment 85039
“Polo” arguing with the ump!

Looks like the now infamous blowup with the first base ump after Zobrist was struck by a pitch prior to a bunt, and the ump sent him back to home plate.
Joe was well within managerial privilege as the ump intruded into the game and its tactics with what Joe claimed was an asinine call.

 

[Harp]

It would have to be closer to when I took my exams on ancient Greek philosophers (30+ years ago) for me to really get the nuances ...

Zeno with his infinite lines and Heraclitus for his belief that character is destiny... White Sox and Cubs applicable, respectively.
The Cubs dropped another game last nite against the Pirates after losing their last match with the Braves. The injuries are accumulating in dribs and drabs,
Arietta now is out with what appears a hamstring issue, so the Cubs are definitely now going to draw upon their individual and collective character
to secure the National League.

 

[LizzieMaine]

View attachment 85033
Joe with 'Greatest Slugger' trophy, 1949. Photo courtesy of Henry Yee Auctions & Archives.

Joe bought a Victor R-32 radio in 1929 and kept it for twenty years. My kind of guy.

Whether or not any of the Black Sox should have been or should be reinstated is another dilemma. There is no question that Jackson accepted a cash payment of $5000 from the gamblers, handed to him as five $1000 bills in a dirty envelope by Lefty Williams. He reported the payment to Comiskey after the Series, but was told to keep the money and keep his mouth shut -- Comiskey was doing all he possibly could to cover up what had happened. The record shows he played exceptionally well thruout the Series -- some say this proves he was so good even when he tried to cheat he still excelled, others say he had no intention of cheating at all, and was made a sucker of by the other corrupt players.

And there is no question that Weaver accepted no money from anyone and played to the best of his ability-- his only crime was not telling what he knew when he was approached in August about the possibility of tanking the series. He was not entirely an innocent outsider who got caught up in the swirl of events -- Gandil and Risberg were his two closest friends on the club, and he was aware of what was being planned from the very beginning. He chose not to betray his friends, and for that he was punished.

Of the other players, Cicotte spilled his guts to the grand jury and never sought any kind of reinstatement. He went on with his life and tried to make amends by living decently for the rest of his days. Felsch did likewise, and years later was Eliot Asinof's primary source for "Eight Men Out." He was haunted by his guilt for the rest of his life, as was Lefty Williams, whose life was threatened by the gamblers before the series' final game. Risberg was, by all accounts, a mean SOB who didn't care what anyone thought, and whose personal motto was "Why work when you can fool the public?" He also threatened to kill Jackson if he didn't keep his mouth shut. McMullin wasn't just the "eighth man out" in 1919, he is known to have been the contact between gamblers and the rest of the corrupt players thruout the 1920 season as well. And Gandil, who everybody admits was the ringleader, went to his grave insisting that while there *was* a plan to throw the series in which he *was* the ringleader, and that he did accept a $30,000 payment for services rendered from the gamblers, the players themselves abandoned the idea and played the series to win.

Who do you believe? There is in all likelihood no one now living who saw any of these players on the field in 1919, leaving us only what they chose to say during their lifetimes, and what was written about the affair at the time, to judge their guilt or innocence. How can you really *know* what went thru a man's head nearly a century ago when there were so many contradictory stories going around even at the time. Baseball down thru the years has played it down the middle -- you will see Joe Jackson memorabilia in the HOF, but you won't see a plaque in his honor.

If it were up to me, I'd put Jackson in, with a mention on his plaque of the controversy, and likewise Cicotte. Weaver could have been an HOF player, but we'll never know what he would have done in the 1920s. Reinstatement for him would simply be a formality, but it would give his family closure, and it's hard to argue against that. But I admit right off that all of this is based on emotion, not cold reason, and Baseball, for all its trafficking in nostalgia is still a cold-blooded, hard-boiled enterprise.

 

[2jakes]

"In 1941, Shirley Povich went to Greensboro, N.C., to interview Shoeless Joe Jackson,
who was banned from baseball for conspiring to fix the 1919 World Series despite being
acquitted by a jury. Povich had heard much about Jackson from various players.

Walter Johnson told him, “He was the only man who could whip that bat around fast enough
to hit my fast ball on my best days,” and Ted Williams said, “I want to hit like Jackson.

Ty Cobb told me – ‘There was the greatest, son, and there’s been nothing like him since, or before
I sat with Shoeless Joe Jackson in the rickety grandstand as the Nats played the Tigers in Greenville.
In disguised curiosity, players of the Detroit and Washington teams sauntered past to glimpse the man
when his presence in the park was whispered about.

They wanted a gander at the fellow their fathers had told them about.
They stared at the man who, their dads had told them, could do more things
better on a baseball field than any player who ever lived.” S. Povich.

My grandfather spoke of his great play on the field,
and that’s good enough for me.

 

[Fading Fast]

Joe bought a Victor R-32 radio in 1929 and kept it for twenty years. My kind of guy.

Whether or not any of the Black Sox should have been or should be reinstated is another dilemma. There is no question that Jackson accepted a cash payment of $5000 from the gamblers, handed to him as five $1000 bills in a dirty envelope by Lefty Williams. He reported the payment to Comiskey after the Series, but was told to keep the money and keep his mouth shut -- Comiskey was doing all he possibly could to cover up what had happened. The record shows he played exceptionally well thruout the Series -- some say this proves he was so good even when he tried to cheat he still excelled, others say he had no intention of cheating at all, and was made a sucker of by the other corrupt players.

And there is no question that Weaver accepted no money from anyone and played to the best of his ability-- his only crime was not telling what he knew when he was approached in August about the possibility of tanking the series. He was not entirely an innocent outsider who got caught up in the swirl of events -- Gandil and Risberg were his two closest friends on the club, and he was aware of what was being planned from the very beginning. He chose not to betray his friends, and for that he was punished.

Of the other players, Cicotte spilled his guts to the grand jury and never sought any kind of reinstatement. He went on with his life and tried to make amends by living decently for the rest of his days. Felsch did likewise, and years later was Eliot Asinof's primary source for "Eight Men Out." He was haunted by his guilt for the rest of his life, as was Lefty Williams. Risberg was, by all accounts, a mean SOB who didn't care what anyone thought, and whose personal motto was "Why work when you can fool the public?" McMullin wasn't just the "eighth man out" in 1919, he is known to have been the contact between gamblers and the rest of the corrupt players thruout the 1920 season as well. And Gandil, who everybody admits was the ringleader, went to his grave insisting that while there *was* a plan to throw the series in which he *was* the ringleader, and that he did accept a $30,000 payment for services rendered from the gamblers, the players themselves abandoned the idea and played the series to win.

Who do you believe? There is in all likelihood no one now living who saw any of these players on the field in 1919, leaving us only what they chose to say during their lifetimes, and what was written about the affair at the time, to judge their guilt or innocence. How can you really *know* what went thru a man's head nearly a century ago when there were so many contradictory stories going around even at the time. Baseball down thru the years has played it down the middle -- you will see Joe Jackson memorabilia in the HOF, but you won't see a plaque in his honor.

If it were up to me, I'd put Jackson in, with a mention on his plaque of the controversy, and likewise Cicotte. Weaver could have been an HOF player, but we'll never know what he would have done in the 1920s. Reinstatement for him would simply be a formality, but it would give his family closure, and it's hard to argue against that. But I admit right off that all of this is based on emotion, not cold reason, and Baseball, for all its trafficking in nostalgia is still a cold-blooded, hard-boiled enterprise.

I would have no problem with this as it falls into the category of "we're all flawed people, the entire baseball / HOF history is littered with imperfections - so why leave out Jackson when there is enough grey area." Got it.

But then there is my Dad's view (he's been dead 25+ years, but I bet I'm not wrong as I can hear him saying it to me if I'd done what Joe did).

Dad: What did you think the $5000 was for?

Me: But I played to the best of my ability / I never "threw" a single play

Dad: What did you think the $5000 was for?

Me: Well, some of the other guys truly threw the game

Dad: What did you think the $5000 was for?

Me: Um, well, I told Comiskey the truth after the series.

Dad: And that matters how? Why did you take the money in the first place?

Me: The other guys were doing it and they argued that we had been so under paid...

Dad: So you believed that the honorable thing to do was to take money from a bookie/gangster to throw the game - and cheat the fans, the players who didn't take the money and yourself and, even, the bookie/ganster - to make up for what you felt was low pay that you accepted of free will to play the game?

Me: Here's a loaded gun - please shoot me

Dad: The honorable thing would be for you to do it yourself.

Me: Sigh

 

[LizzieMaine]

I had no idea your dad was Judge Landis! That's pretty much the way he handled it, so far as the players and any question of reinstatement were concerned. But what of Comiskey? Leaving aside his business practices, he willfully and deliberately set out to cover up the scandal from the second game of the Series until the last week of the 1920 season. It was only when the Grand Jury took up the case and Cicotte, Jackson and Williams confessed -- and those confessions hit the papers -- that Comiskey took action to suspend the players involved.

A case could be made that, having acted thusly, Comiskey was every bit as guilty as Buck Weaver. He knew he had crooked players on his roster -- who continued to tank games during the 1920 season, with the White Sox fighting for a pennant -- yet he did nothing about them until outside factors forced his hand. "The joke," as Happy Felsch put it, "seems to be on us."

 

[Fading Fast]

I had no idea your dad was Judge Landis! That's pretty much the way he handled it, so far as the players and any question of reinstatement were concerned. But what of Comiskey? Leaving aside his business practices, he willfully and deliberately set out to cover up the scandal from the second game of the Series until the last week of the 1920 season. It was only when the Grand Jury took up the case and Cicotte, Jackson and Williams confessed -- and those confessions hit the papers -- that Comiskey took action to suspend the players involved.

A case could be made that, having acted thusly, Comiskey was every bit as guilty as Buck Weaver. He knew he had crooked players on his roster -- who continued to tank games during the 1920 season, with the White Sox fighting for a pennant -- yet he did nothing about them until outside factors forced his hand. "The joke," as Happy Felsch put it, "seems to be on us."

My dad was not an easy person - but he had a code for and belief of what he owned his family and he honored that. You or I might argue with both the what and how of that code - it wasn't touchy feely or child-focused - but I'll take that over the fathers that don't live up to their responsibilities. I wouldn't live my childhood over again for anything (just kill me now), but I did learn a lot from him (and had to unlearn some things as well). And while my moral code isn't a carbon copy of his, his gave me an honorable framework to start from.

As to baseball, the best is to have a set of rules that covers everything in place before hand and then to apply those evenhandedly. So if you do X, you are guilty. Where mitigating factors come in - based on facts, circumstance, specifics of the case and people involved - those should impact the sentencing / punishment - that's where human judges use their discretion within the parameters of an establish framework.

That's all nice in theory, but hard to put into place as it's hard to anticipate every situation (but a strong set of rules and guiding principals of justice can do it). And once you put discretion in a system (as I argued for in sentencing), it will always seem unfair and not consistent. And that's if everyone is trying to do the right thing, but of course, the system tries to protect itself and that's where cover-ups and scandals come from (at worse) and uneven justice at minimum.

And a guy - like Comiskey - that was covering up after the fact until the coverup failed should not have been meting out justice but on the receiving end of punishment.

 

[Harp]

... So if you do X, you are guilty. Where mitigating factors come in - based on facts, circumstance, specifics of the case and people involved - those should impact the sentencing / punishment - that's where human judges use their discretion within the parameters of an establish framework.

Unless the 5th Circuit Appeals is involved.

 

[Ghostsoldier]

I think a lot of it is stubborn tradition, as no Commissioner has ever rescinded a prior Commissioner's decision.

I've written the office of the Commissioner every year now for about 15 or so years on behalf of the Jackson and Weaver legacies, and I get the same, lame, patronizing form letter reply of denial.

Rob

 

[Fading Fast]

Unless the 5th Circuit Appeals is involved.

Or the DC Circuit Court.

 

[Harp]

Or the DC Circuit Court.

Upon further thought, I think the 9th Circuit is the worse of all.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think the biggest shadow hanging over rehabilitation of Jackson and Weaver is that of Pete Rose. If any of the Black Sox are reinstated, then the commissioner will have to deal, once and for all, with Rose -- and I don't think anybody wants to do that as long as Rose himself is still alive and able to further embarass the game with various sordid revelations. Once Rose is dead, I suspect there might be some movement.

 

[2jakes]

I think the biggest shadow hanging over rehabilitation of Jackson and Weaver is that of Pete Rose. If any of the Black Sox are reinstated, then the commissioner will have to deal, once and for all, with Rose -- and I don't think anybody wants to do that as long as Rose himself is still alive and able to further embarass the game with various sordid revelations. Once Rose is dead, I suspect there might be some movement.

“Doctors tell me I have the body of a thirty year old.
I know I have the brain of a fifteen year old.
If you’ve got both, you can play baseball !"

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Boulevard Park, Worchester, Mass

Dugdale Athletic Park

Rob

 

[Frunobulax]

I think the biggest shadow hanging over rehabilitation of Jackson and Weaver is that of Pete Rose. If any of the Black Sox are reinstated, then the commissioner will have to deal, once and for all, with Rose -- and I don't think anybody wants to do that as long as Rose himself is still alive and able to further embarass the game with various sordid revelations. Once Rose is dead, I suspect there might be some movement.

At this point, I think the Pete Rose/HoF saga is over. MLB has come to terms with allowing him some involvement in the ceremonial aspects of the game but not the functional aspects. He will not be reinstated during his lifetime. The recent revelations have even further eroded this, as the Phillies cancelled their ceremonies for him following the news.

It may or may not impact Jackson or Weaver, though it may actually put them in a somewhat better light. Nobody ever accused them of tax evasion or pursuing underage girls.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Another distorted outcome of systems (business, gov't and charities) that accept a certain amount of cheating is that they are inconsistent in their enforcement and sometimes "crack down hard" to regain some credibility. It's all brutally unfair because who really knows where the line is - how much and what type of cheating is allowed?

Gambling on games in which you have a duty to perform is not cheating. It's a completely different animal. And the line on gambling is pretty stark and crystal clear. It's not just a line, it's a 50 wall with electrified concertina wire at the top. Sports fans can forgive a great many things, from womanizing to murder, but there is one, and only one that would be absolutely fatal to the game, and that is if fans start to believe the games are not on the level. This is drilled into every player from the moment they step into the clubhouse. There is a zero tolerance policy and the penalties are swift and career ending. Period.

Where there is a fine line is in the things such as sign stealing. Players doing it among themselves during the games, such as a runner on 2B stealing the sign and relaying to the hitter, or a catcher taking a peak at the third base coach and picking up the steal sign, is not only *not* frowned upon, it's considered smart baseball. Likewise in football is the defense recognizes a particular play because of the offensive formation or players on the field, that's just "having your head in the game". It's the use of outside, non-player, off-field influences that crosses the line. It's the unequal use of outside technology. That's why, for example, when the headsets of one football team, or the bullpen phone of a baseball team, goes out, the other team is not allowed to use thiers either, even if it is working properly.

 

[HudsonHawk]

And yet, they won't let Shoeless Joe, Buck Weaver or Pete Rose into the HOF. *smh*

Rob

If Jackson, or especially Rose, ever gets into the HOF, it will be one of the darkest days in baseball history.

If there is any sympathetic character in the Black Sox scandal, it's the Ginger Kid.