Himel Bros Chevalier bis

[red devil]

We know exactly what we want and no amount of money guarantees it's what we're going to get

Not sure if I interpreted this correctly, but it is true I found myself becoming very specific in what I wanted after having bought a few jackets.

 

[Monitor]

Not sure if I interpreted this correctly, but it is true I found myself becoming very specific in what I wanted after having bought a few jackets.

I mean like, it's not just about the technical specs - I always imagine what the jacket will fit like, what it'll look like when I'm buying something new. If it's gonna have that vibe. And if it doesn't, I'll know right away and won't be happy with it, even of everything has been done according to my specifications.

 

[navetsea]

yeah but with leather you got to give time, it will look better with time even if the time is spent mostly on the hanger, somehow the leather still ages and gravity drapes it better.

 

[Carlos840]

I was not clear with my question. I am curious how you would compare your LW leathertogsA with your Himel Chevalier. When I look at Himel's Chevalier I thing of the leathertogs. It seems to me Himel does not reproduce one singular jacket patern, they design jackets around a more general period design putting their own design talents into their jacket models. Whereas Lost World and quite a few other jacket makers ar reproduce a close copy of an original jacket. John Chapman and I believe Aero goes as far as to disassemble jackets to make patterns.
I know they would use different leather, I am interested in your opinion of the designs and general details and feel of the jackets worn

Sorry, i misunderstood your question.
The Chevalier is definitely Leathertogs inspired and it has the Leathertogs overall shape.
If i look at my LW LT/A, LT/B, and my Freewheelers LaBrea they have obvious construction and pattern similarities.
They have the same underarm gussets, the same rounded low hanging shoulders, similar arm rotation and shape, they clearly come out of the same mould. And wear the same way.
The Chevalier shares all these features but they are blended in a bit and less obvious.
I would say you could call the LW Leathertogs and the LaBrea sibblings, the Chevalier is a cousin.

 

[Carlos840]

Just for the sake of consistancy and honesty i wanted to update this thread with these pics:

Here are a few pics ilustrating the issues i have with my Chevalier.
Let me start by saying i am aware this might look meaningless to some of you.
If you are happy with that level of stitching good for you, i personally don't think this is appropriate when you know where Himel is trying to position themselves in the market.

Wavy uneven top stitch:

Other side, same seam, just as wavy and uneven:

One of the "thread loops" on either side of the gusset was badly done and tore the leather, jacket was delivered that way.
It hasn't gotten worst, but there is a 3mm tear at a place that is IMO one of the most important of the back design:

Follow the red arrow seam upwards:

You can see the part bellow the half belt is nicely done, it wasn't pulled too tight, the first seam is invisible, hidden under the fold as it should be.
The part above the half belt was pulled far too tight before being top stitched, exposing the first seam, there is no visible fold to hide the seam. (look at the two decorative seams just right of it, they don't suffer from the same problem...)
The mirror seam on the right side of the jacket isn't as bad but it isn't far.
The pits show the same problems, you can see both seams when one should be hidden under the fold.
It gives the entire jacket the impression it is being "pulled appart" and looks pretty messy IMO.
It just feels like there was little attention to detail during the stitching.

Admitedly i would not care as much if i had spent 1000-1500 dollars in that jacket.
As it stand i paid 2250$, IMO for that money these mistakes shouldn't be present.

For that kind of money i now expect laser straight stitching like this:

 

[powerserge]

Yeah this makes much more sense. The issues here as you stated wouldn’t be as big of a deal if the jacket was around $1k...but it’s not. It’s double that price and for what? They nailed the fit but I would be upset too with the issues that are there. My Himel that I recently received seems to have all straight stitching and nothing looks out of place. That’s exactly what I expect out of a Himel jacket and I think what you do received is a second grade product. At the very least it should have been discounted but better yet it should have never left in that state. It’s unfortunate that you pay what you did and received this

 

[Will Zach]

...and, on unrelated note, I am appalled at the fit of this Aero (in context of @Carlos840 other jackets). Maybe good for a pear-shaped guy, but for an athletic build it looks plain awful from the back. Carlos sets new standards in fit, and Aero just does not cut it here.

 

[Monitor]

Just for the sake of consistancy and honesty i wanted to update this thread with these pics:

Here are a few pics ilustrating the issues i have with my Chevalier.
Let me start by saying i am aware this might look meaningless to some of you.
If you are happy with that level of stitching good for you, i personally don't think this is appropriate when you know where Himel is trying to position themselves in the market.

Wavy uneven top stitch:

Other side, same seam, just as wavy and uneven:

One of the "thread loops" on either side of the gusset was badly done and tore the leather, jacket was delivered that way.
It hasn't gotten worst, but there is a 3mm tear at a place that is IMO one of the most important of the back design:

Follow the red arrow seam upwards:

You can see the part bellow the half belt is nicely done, it wasn't pulled too tight, the first seam is invisible, hidden under the fold as it should be.
The part above the half belt was pulled far too tight before being top stitched, exposing the first seam, there is no visible fold to hide the seam. (look at the two decorative seams just right of it, they don't suffer from the same problem...)
The mirror seam on the right side of the jacket isn't as bad but it isn't far.
The pits show the same problems, you can see both seams when one should be hidden under the fold.
It gives the entire jacket the impression it is being "pulled appart" and looks pretty messy IMO.
It just feels like there was little attention to detail during the stitching.

Admitedly i would not care as much if i had spent 1000-1500 dollars in that jacket.
As it stand i paid 2250$, IMO for that money these mistakes shouldn't be present.

For that kind of money i now expect laser straight stitching like this:

Send this to Stu for a remake as it's your best fitting jacket, with only Leathertogs approaching it, and sell this one to me!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Thanks for showing all that Carlos. Definitely some noticeable issues there. Not horrendous IMO, but I wouldn't want them on my jacket that was over $2k.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Yeah this makes much more sense. The issues here as you stated wouldn’t be as big of a deal if the jacket was around $1k...but it’s not. It’s double that price and for what? They nailed the fit but I would be upset too with the issues that are there. My Himel that I recently received seems to have all straight stitching and nothing looks out of place. That’s exactly what I expect out of a Himel jacket and I think what you do received is a second grade product. At the very least it should have been discounted but better yet it should have never left in that state. It’s unfortunate that you pay what you did and received this

I don 't understand why it would be acceptable on a $1K jacket. Where is the scale that determines when a failure in a core artisanal skill is ok? I wouldn't accept it on a $600 Vanson. This level of stitching on a 5* jacket would get a "this is why we don't buy cheap jackets" comment, surely?

 

[navetsea]

OK that stitching is not pleasing, on a leather that seems thinner and not challenging to work with
I don't like too many topstitches to begin with, but a parallel wonky lines really hit it, shouldn't come from someone who is proud about their perfect flat and straight stitching work done at low speed publicly

 

[Spiney]

...and, on unrelated note, I am appalled at the fit of this Aero (in context of @Carlos840 other jackets). Maybe good for a pear-shaped guy, but for an athletic build it looks plain awful from the back. Carlos sets new standards in fit, and Aero just does not cut it here.

I’d say that Aero was too big anyway, looking at the P to P measurements and his chest size. My best fitting jacket is a 25” P to P ( only 1/2” bigger) and my chest size is 3” bigger.

 

[red devil]

This level of stitching on a 5* jacket would get a "this is why we don't buy cheap jackets" comment, surely?

Spot on

 

[powerserge]

I don 't understand why it would be acceptable on a $1K jacket. Where is the scale that determines when a failure in a core artisanal skill is ok? I wouldn't accept it on a $600 Vanson. This level of stitching on a 5* jacket would get a "this is why we don't buy cheap jackets" comment, surely?

You’re completely right, I would say majority of jackets that are discussed should and have the ability to make near perfect jackets. I just think it’s more unacceptable because of the price point. I personally would tolerate more hiccups as the price goes down. But nonetheless at $1k or around that, you should still be getting almost flawless jacket

 

[Monitor]

I don 't understand why it would be acceptable on a $1K jacket. Where is the scale that determines when a failure in a core artisanal skill is ok? I wouldn't accept it on a $600 Vanson. This level of stitching on a 5* jacket would get a "this is why we don't buy cheap jackets" comment, surely?

Absolutely agreed. Like I said earlier, if a $130 Zara doesn't have any issues that particularly stand out, it's unacceptable on any $300+ jacket. $1K ought to be plated in gold if I am to be asked, let alone well made.

 

[Will Zach]

^^
Bingo. On a $2300 Himel, the shinki leather costs the maker about $500. Liner, hardware - maybe $150. Somehow, in this pretty healthy profit margin the maker should be able to include quality labor. This is truly a shame. Complacency. Disregard for the customer. Over there, Greg Field is sweating bullets, nervous as all hell whether his perfectly made jacket will meet customer acceptance for $1300, and DH casually sends out sloppy work for $2300. Buyer beware and draw his own conclusions.

 

[Harris HTM]

This level of stitching on a 5* jacket would get a "this is why we don't buy cheap jackets" comment, surely?

+1.
As I mentioned in another thread, I think we tend to be far more forgiving and open-minded when we have spent more.

 

[Superfluous]

DH casually sends out sloppy work for $2300.

I assume you were not present when DH sent out @Carlos840 's jacket. Therefore, how do you know that Dave "casually" allowed the flaws to leave his shop. Are you familiar with DH's QC protocols? Isn't it entirely possible that Dave is anything but casual about QC, but this jacket somehow evaded otherwise appropriate QC protocols? All manufacturers -- every single one -- occasionally let a flawed jacket out the door because of a QC lapse. Are all other manufacturers also "casual" about such matters or only Himel? Why assume the worst with Himel and employ disparaging ad hominem characterizations to further stoke the fire?

Greg Field is sweating bullets, nervous as all hell whether his perfectly made jacket will meet customer acceptance for $1300

I thought Greg's jackets are $1,600. Separately, as has been documented elsewhere, Greg's jackets are not all "perfect." Was he being "casual" when he delivered an imperfect jacket? I'll answer my rhetorical question: I doubt it. Rather, I suspect he simply made a mistake and did not catch it. All manufacturers -- every single one -- have such lapses and to suggest otherwise is to ignore reality.

On a $2300 Himel, the shinki leather costs the maker about $500.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I am curious what your source is. Himel claims that Shinki is the most expensive HH on the market. BK once told me that they do not use Shinki because it is too expensive. I genuinely have no idea what the cost is for enough Shinki HH to make a single jacket.

 

[Brandrea33]

I assume you were not present when DH sent out @Carlos840 's jacket. Therefore, how do you know that Dave "casually" allowed the flaws to leave his shop. Are you familiar with DH's QC protocols? Isn't it entirely possible that Dave is anything but casual about QC, but this jacket somehow evaded otherwise appropriate QC protocols? All manufacturers -- every single one -- occasionally let a flawed jacket out the door because of a QC lapse. Are all other manufacturers also "casual" about such matters or only Himel? Why assume the worst with Himel and employ disparaging ad hominem characterizations to further stoke the fire?



I thought Greg's jackets are $1,600. Separately, as has been documented elsewhere, Greg's jackets are not all "perfect." Was he being "casual" when he delivered an imperfect jacket? I'll answer my rhetorical question: I doubt it. Rather, I suspect he simply made a mistake and did not catch it. All manufacturers -- every single one -- have such lapses and to suggest otherwise is to ignore reality.



I'm not saying your wrong, but I am curious what your source is. Himel claims that Shinki is the most expensive HH on the market. BK once told me that they do not use Shinki because it is too expensive. I genuinely have no idea what the cost is for enough Shinki HH to make a single jacket.

FWIW ... the cost of a jacket ...

When I met with David to pick up my Imperial, I was told that the Shinki leather cost him about $10 /ft. Take 40sq/ft for the average jacket and that’s about $400. He also told me he pays his sewers $30/hr.

I believe in one of his videos somewhere he states it takes between 15-20 hours to make the jacket ... so another $600. Add to that the zippers, and hardware, say $100?

The all in cost appears to be rounded up to $1200 conservatively (if I’m off on my zipper/hardware cost).

edit, I’m not sure if he was quoting USF on the labor rate, as they are made in Toronto.

edit#2: and let’s not forget the lining ... no idea as to cost but would guess less than the Shinki

edit #3: and the tertiary costs like the web site and sales support etc.

I think I’m done now lol

 

[VestCoast]

The wholesale price in the fashion industry is 2-2.5x the manufacturing cost, which is then doubled again for the retail price. So a manufacturing price of $1200 means the retail should be in the range of $4800 if the jacket was made by a fashion house. Considering the overall effort in sourcing material and design, its really a pretty good deal comparatively. Also, as for leather costs, its going to be higher even if the $10/sq ft is the correct figure. Wastage from hide irregularity is going to bump the actual cost up considerably, particularly when you account for the large panels a lot of the designs use.