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[Frunobulax]

There was a time when the less formal dinner jacket/suit (aka tuxedo) caused a scandal. Of course it you wear a dinner jacket most places today you are an overdressed oddity. Professional or white collar workers wouldn’t consider wearing anything less than a suit to work. Sport coats were for sporting events and men’s etiquette called for ties or some sort of neckwear for fishing, shooting, golfing etc. Even blue collar workers wore suits to church and ties were not optional. Tweeds were only for the country and no gentleman would be seen in public in his shirt sleeves! We all draw the line at different places and I’d care as much about someone thinking I shouldn’t wear my hat at a restaurant as you might for someone thinking you were dressed inappropriately for church if not wearing a suit and tie.

I agree that the falling standards are not to my tastes, but I’m also not wanting go back to where things were. I do think that kindness and consideration for others are timeless attributes of someone who was raised right, but all the contrived rules of etiquette that are not based on something more substantial than tradition are open to personal interpretation.

You present a false choice. There is no need to "go back to where things were," nor am I advocating it. What I'm decrying is the prevailing more that it is best if everybody decides for themselves what is appropriate without a care for those around them. Many of the rules of etiquette have solid foundations in practicality and respect for others. Just because it's been lost to history and ignorance why doesn't mean it doesn't provide some benefit.

I take a holistic view toward etiquette, and take seriously how a person fits into civilization. Civilization needs guardrails or it isn't civilized. I could go on and on about deconstructionism, the Frankfurt School, and various other things that have gotten us to where we are, but that's a subject that requires more than I'd like to get into.

All this sounds like nonsense when talking about hat wearing, but etiquette and manners are lubrication that allows for civilization to function without descending into anarchy. The little things count, too. Call it the "broken windows" theory of preserving society.

 

[Frunobulax]

I too was raised 'old school'...1950's & 60's....... but have a different perspective. My wife and I dine out but these days not much if at all in 'fine dining' establishments. We prefer our own cooking for the most part. So our date nights (or days) are at ethnic restaurants or craft brew joints....decidedly on the casual side. We dress up...sort of....and I invariably leave my hat on.....as does my wife. It seems to suit the time and place. I do still hold the doors for women (and for men as the occasion suits), open the car door for my wife but I do usually leave my hat on.

I was raised to be mannerly and polite. While I agree a good portion of the relaxing of standards has been a good thing, we've had a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because some societal rules no longer make sense doesn't mean we should throw them all out (not that you're arguing for that).

I do "fine dining" probably a half-dozen times a year and, lie you we usually go to a pub or other casual joint for meals. I normally don't find it much of a challenge to find a place for my hat. During the summer, we usually go for the patio (and sometimes bring our pooch), so that's even more casual.

But it's also part of my personality to like procedures and rituals. Probably the engineer/scientist in me. Or Catholicism, LOL.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

^^after a certain age (let’s say older) it would seem to me that one should do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s rights or the law, without worry.
If i see a grandpa minding his own business with a hat on in a restaurant who the hell am i to past judgment.
It’s not my business and to make it mine disrespects the fact that the old guy made as far as he has and a big hell yeah to him.
I would hope after a certain age people would have worried that stuff away and become comfortable in themselves knowing it doesn’t make a difference in anything.
This applies to most things from hats to hand grenades.
YMMV
B

 

[Who?]

This applies to most things from hats to hand grenades.

Never mess with an old guy …………. he may have a hand grenade in his pocket.

 

[Frunobulax]

^^after a certain age (let’s say older) it would seem to me that one should do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s rights or the law, without worry.
If i see a grandpa minding his own business with a hat on in a restaurant who the hell am i to past judgment.
It’s not my business and to make it mine disrespects the fact that the old guy made as far as he has and a big hell yeah to him.
I would hope after a certain age people would have worried that stuff away and become comfortable in themselves knowing it doesn’t make a difference in anything.
This applies to most things from hats to hand grenades.
YMMV
B

Works both ways, doesn't it, B? To confront someone over something like that would also violate good manners and etiquette.

 

[Mighty44]

Has anyone successfully used a naphtha bath to get must smell out of a hat?

Bummed to find a new purchase is really musty. I’ve been down this road before and nothing I was able to do at home—even full on soaking in vinegar—completely worked. Kind of pegging my hopes on naphtha but would welcome any insight.

Thanks,

David

 

[Who?]

They tell you to bury books in cat litter In order to deodorize than.

I have no clue if this would work for a hat, and this advice is worth the exact amount you are paying for it.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

You present a false choice. There is no need to "go back to where things were," nor am I advocating it. What I'm decrying is the prevailing more that it is best if everybody decides for themselves what is appropriate without a care for those around them. Many of the rules of etiquette have solid foundations in practicality and respect for others. Just because it's been lost to history and ignorance why doesn't mean it doesn't provide some benefit.

I take a holistic view toward etiquette, and take seriously how a person fits into civilization. Civilization needs guardrails or it isn't civilized. I could go on and on about deconstructionism, the Frankfurt School, and various other things that have gotten us to where we are, but that's a subject that requires more than I'd like to get into.

All this sounds like nonsense when talking about hat wearing, but etiquette and manners are lubrication that allows for civilization to function without descending into anarchy. The little things count, too. Call it the "broken windows" theory of preserving society.

I wasn’t stating it’s an all or nothing proposition nor was I advocating going back to some earlier time. There was no choice, false or otherwise, that I was wanting anyone to make. I’m saying if we all get to pick and chose the points of etiquette we want to keep and those we disregard then asking what the rule of etiquette is for a guy in short pants and a tee shirt removing his hat in a restaurant…well the point is lost on me. If we’ve already thrown away the book it doesn’t make sense to me to dig it out and reference it for one point regarding hat wearing when dining al fresco. Such a rule seems serve no social or practical purpose and is a rule for rules sake.

I agree that we need some of these less formalized rules for society to function properly, but there’s no consensus on which are important and which should stay in history as they don’t serve a real function. For me, doffing a hat for the national Anthem makes sense as a show of respect to the country and those who have sacrificed for it. Removing it in church shows humility and reverence before God. Removing it where it might interfere or obstruct a view is showing courtesy. Removing it in another’s home shows respect and shows deference. I just don’t see what wearing a hat in a public place while eating does for the social contract. What is the point? Is it just conformity for the sake of conformity? Is it the continuance of tradition with no function other than nostalgia? Did it once serve a function that it no longer does but the “rule” remains? If we honestly consider it and the only thing we have is that’s how granddad did it or that’s how I was raised than maybe it’s not an important piece of etiquette. Not that there isn’t value in keeping traditions for their own sakes, but that’s a personal thing and not shared etiquette.

Enjoyed the rambling, but I’m not sure I did anything more than fill up some space on this thread.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Oh here’s another hat rule never mentioned....
I’ll always take my hat off if i get in a fight out of respect for the hat.
Unless it’s a helmet...that woud just be dumb.
B

 

[Who?]

All I can say (I hope without offending) is that to someone of my generation and upbringing, if you wear a hat while eating (inside) in a restaurant, you look like an ill-mannered ignoramus.

I fully realize that such folks have absolutely no regard for the opinions of others, otherwise they would observe the norms of behavior in public. Usually they exhibit other forms of asocial conduct, frequently being loud, boisterous, and profane.

I just think it’s inconsiderate, but I may be swimming upstream here.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Oh here’s another hat rule never mentioned....
I’ll always take my hat off if i get in a fight out of respect for the hat.
Unless it’s a helmet...that woud just be dumb.
B

Finally, some advice we can use and no one can disagree with.

 

[Bamaboots]

Unless it’s a helmet...that wouid just be dumb.

Really thought I'd avoid the madness this go round but I can't let bad advice go unchecked. Let me assure you that a helmet without a quick release can quickly become a head handle. No point in commenting on how I know these things.

 

[belfastboy]

Oh here’s another hat rule never mentioned....
I’ll always take my hat off if i get in a fight out of respect for the hat.
Unless it’s a helmet...that woud just be dumb.
B

I was a hockey goalie for a number of years. Once I got into a scrap with a guy parked in my crease. I flipped my mask off before engaging. After the game in the locker room my teammates wouldn't let it rest....."What were you thinking moron!!!!"

 

[deadlyhandsome]

All I can say (I hope without offending) is that to someone of my generation and upbringing, if you wear a hat while eating (inside) in a restaurant, you look like an ill-mannered ignoramus.

I fully realize that such folks have absolutely no regard for the opinions of others, otherwise they would observe the norms of behavior in public. Usually they exhibit other forms of asocial conduct, frequently being loud, boisterous, and profane.

I just think it’s inconsiderate, but I may be swimming upstream here.

I absolutely respect your opinion, but I just don’t see why it’s inconsiderate. Other than that’s the way you were raised, what is is about wearing a hat while eating indoors that offends? Loud and profane I get as that impacts your experience and can offend sensibilities. However, the fact that some inanimate object is quietly sitting on someone’s head that isn’t blocking your view etc., just doesn’t seem like anything to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I try to remove my hat when possible. I do it largely because their is a gentle pressure to conform and not offend and to fit in. Humans are social creatures and there doesn’t have to be a well-reasoned foundation for what we do. There is an evolutionary need to fit in and to avoid standing out. Even the rugged individualists conform more than they might like to admit.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

When dining I’d rather have my hat on my head than under the table top with all the boogers & bubblegum.

 

[Who?]

I absolutely respect your opinion, but I just don’t see why it’s inconsiderate. Other than that’s the way you were raised, what is is about wearing a hat while eating indoors that offends? Loud and profane I get as that impacts your experience and can offend sensibilities. However, the fact that some inanimate object is quietly sitting on someone’s head that isn’t blocking your view etc., just doesn’t seem like anything to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I try to remove my hat when possible. I do it largely because their is a gentle pressure to conform and not offend and to fit in. Humans are social creatures and there doesn’t have to be a well-reasoned foundation for what we do. There is an evolutionary need to fit in and to avoid standing out. Even the rugged individualists conform more than they might like to admit.

As has already been pointed out, social conventions don’t necessarily have to make sense, and I agree that it is just my perception.

Having said that, if I really gave a big rat’s rump about ”fitting in and not standing out” I wouldn’t walk around in Connecticut every day while wearing a western/outback hat, so I suspect there is some inconsistency there.

 

[belfastboy]

I absolutely respect your opinion, but I just don’t see why it’s inconsiderate. Other than that’s the way you were raised, what is is about wearing a hat while eating indoors that offends? Loud and profane I get as that impacts your experience and can offend sensibilities. However, the fact that some inanimate object is quietly sitting on someone’s head that isn’t blocking your view etc., just doesn’t seem like anything to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I try to remove my hat when possible. I do it largely because their is a gentle pressure to conform and not offend and to fit in. Humans are social creatures and there doesn’t have to be a well-reasoned foundation for what we do. There is an evolutionary need to fit in and to avoid standing out. Even the rugged individualists conform more than they might like to admit.

I took my wife out for a date this afternoon and we had lunch in a very nice upscale bistro. Shared a bottle of bubbly and a nice lunch indoors as the patio was full on this very sunny day.

No place to put my Panama so I continued to wear it. No one looked at me sideways or seemed to care. Everyone seemed to be fine with it, I felt fine and my wife was unabashed so it all was good. I def would take it off in church or at a funeral but other than I make up the rules as I see fit.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

As has already been pointed out, social conventions don’t necessarily have to make sense, and I agree that it is just my perception.

Having said that, if I really gave a big rats rump about ”fitting in and not standing out” I wouldn’t walk around in Connecticut every day while wearing a western/outback hat, so I suspect there is some inconsistency there.

I guessing you wouldn’t walk out in public in a Speedo swim suit and you wouldn’t do so no matter how comfortable it may be. You also probably wouldn’t be interested in a pink western hat no matter how well it matched your skin tone. We all care about fitting in. I mean the fact that you were wondering about conventions on wearing a hat while dining outside show you care somewhat about what others think. It’s not a weakness, it’s human nature and it’s part of what makes us so successful and able to work collaboratively. Thankfully, few of us are sociopaths.

 

[Who?]

I guessing you wouldn’t walk out in public in a Speedo swim suit and you wouldn’t do so no matter how comfortable it may be. You also probably wouldn’t be interested in a pink western hat no matter how well it matched your skin tone. We all care about fitting in. I mean the fact that you were wondering about conventions on wearing a hat while dining outside show you care somewhat about what others think. It’s not a weakness, it’s human nature and it’s part of what makes us so successful and able to work collaboratively. Thankfully, few of us are sociopaths.

Well said.

 

[belfastboy]

I guessing you wouldn’t walk out in public in a Speedo swim suit and you wouldn’t do so no matter how comfortable it may be. You also probably wouldn’t be interested in a pink western hat no matter how well it matched your skin tone. We all care about fitting in. I mean the fact that you were wondering about conventions on wearing a hat while dining outside show you care somewhat about what others think. It’s not a weakness, it’s human nature and it’s part of what makes us so successful and able to work collaboratively. Thankfully, few of us are sociopaths.

A funny quip about riding a bicycle....."No man of a certain age (between 13 AND 90) should be seen wearing Lycra". Kinda like wearing a speedo......nobody looks good in a speedo!