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[belfastboy]

The only exception I would take is correlating mass production with lower quality. I'm channeling @mayserwegener here, but there was a time when the factories (particularly European) offered very high quality because they had vast resources and superior expertise. Some of the elite finishes, such as velour, etc, were best done by the larger factories.

And felt quality suffered some after Mercury was banned from use in the 30s.

Have you come across any sources of information on the use of mercury in the felting process? I bought a small book on the history of felting and the author claims that mercury was never used in the actual felting process but was only part of the prefelting. The use of mercury made the larger fur fibres stand up away from the softer shorter hairs and that allowed them to be more easily plucked out. A tedious by hand process. The more thorough they were in removing these larger coarser fibres the softer the finished felt would be. I would like to find out if this use of mercury was the only aspect of the felting process in which it was used.

 

[M Hatman]

Sadly, in hats, quality was ALWAYS on the downturn! Once hatmaking in factories really started taking hold of the market, it was always a downward trend as costs rose (but hat prices tried to stay level), wars came and went, and hat wearing declined. Stetson factory hats between 1880 and 1930 are very fine. Wonderful attention to detail, great felt, wonderful sweatbands, sharp and notable liners, but from there it unraveled. The felt gradually got less refined, the sweatbands got cheaper and more boring, and the hand work increasingly shoddy. Stetson was the same as all the other hatmakers, too. They all did it until they closed their doors. The 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s.... it was all a steady march towards the lowest quality.

It really is just the way life happened. So, to act as if realizing this truth is somehow elitist or gauche is hard for me to understand. I mean, facts are facts.

And still, I want more people to buy today's factory felt hats. I'd love to see the industry grow instead of contract. I also think that, even as the quality is at its lowest, factory hats are still serviceable. I've bought them. I use them. And I'll probably buy more. So, I don't "look down" on anyone who buys a contemporary factory hat. So, why would someone who buys a factory hat look down on someone who only buys custom or vintage? We all have our favorites and should not be attacked for that.

Now... about those stupid baseball caps.... (ha, ha, just joking)

 

[Frunobulax]

Have you come across any sources of information on the use of mercury in the felting process? I bought a small book on the history of felting and the author claims that mercury was never used in the actual felting process but was only part of the prefelting. The use of mercury made the larger fur fibres stand up away from the softer shorter hairs and that allowed them to be more easily plucked out. A tedious by hand process. The more thorough they were in removing these larger coarser fibres the softer the finished felt would be. I would like to find out if this use of mercury was the only aspect of the felting process in which it was used.

Sorry, bb, but I haven't done the research on that.

 

[belfastboy]

Sorry, bb, but I haven't done the research on that.

It is raining here today....again!.....so it may be a great rainy day endeavour.

 

[Frunobulax]

It is raining here today....again!.....so it may be a great rainy day endeavour.

Well, we'll be expecting a full report. I have to go find a brisket to put on my new smoker tomorrow and pick up a six-pack before the Reds come on at 6:00, so you're in charge.

 

[M Hatman]

Have you come across any sources of information on the use of mercury in the felting process? I bought a small book on the history of felting and the author claims that mercury was never used in the actual felting process but was only part of the prefelting. The use of mercury made the larger fur fibres stand up away from the softer shorter hairs and that allowed them to be more easily plucked out. A tedious by hand process. The more thorough they were in removing these larger coarser fibres the softer the finished felt would be. I would like to find out if this use of mercury was the only aspect of the felting process in which it was used.

While it may have been additionally used to separate the less desirable "guard" Hair from shorter softer fill hair, tI believe the main use of Mercury was facilitate the separation of all the hair from the Pelt (actual skin) of the animal. I know its use was much in decline prior to (and regulated out altogether) by the early 1940's.

 

[carouselvic]

Have you come across any sources of information on the use of mercury in the felting process? I bought a small book on the history of felting and the author claims that mercury was never used in the actual felting process but was only part of the prefelting. The use of mercury made the larger fur fibres stand up away from the softer shorter hairs and that allowed them to be more easily plucked out. A tedious by hand process. The more thorough they were in removing these larger coarser fibres the softer the finished felt would be. I would like to find out if this use of mercury was the only aspect of the felting process in which it was used.

Mercury was used on the hides to aid in opening the barbs of the fur so that when felted they would bind together with other fur and thus felt tighter and become more dense. The process is called carroting.

 

[belfastboy]

Mercury was used on the hides to aid in opening the barbs of the fur so that when felted they would bind together with other fur and thus felt tighter and become more dense. The process is called carroting.

Thank you. I just read that it was more commonly used with lesser fibres, rabbit etc than with beaver....especially as it caused the orange tinting. The lesser fibres needed the mercury and thus it was worth it whereas the beaver didn't and the 'carroting' caused more problems than benefit.

 

[M Hatman]

From our favorite Wikipedia.......but I do believe it is essentially correct.

Carroting
Invented in the mid 17th century and used until the mid-20th centuries, a process called "carroting" was used in the manufacture of good quality felt for making men's hats. Beaver, rabbit or hare skins were treated with a dilute solution of the mercury compound mercuric nitrate. The skins were dried in an oven where the thin fur at the sides turned orange, the color of carrots. Pelts were stretched over a bar in a cutting machine, and the skin was sliced off in thin shreds, with the fleece coming away entirely. The fur was blown onto a cone-shaped colander and then treated with hot water to consolidate it. The cone then peeled off and passed through wet rollers to cause the fur to felt. These 'hoods' were then dyed and blocked to make hats

I understand it had the added benefit of opening the barbs of the hair (thus making a product that will felt easier) its intention was simply to facilitate the separation of the hair from the pelt.

 

[belfastboy]

Well, we'll be expecting a full report. I have to go find a brisket to put on my new smoker tomorrow and pick up a six-pack before the Reds come on at 6:00, so you're in charge.

Well, I would much rather go on a brisket hunt with you. Don't forget to root for that good Canadian kid...Votto!

 

[carouselvic]

Thank you. I just read that it was more commonly used with lesser fibres, rabbit etc than with beaver....especially as it caused the orange tinting. The lesser fibres needed the mercury and thus it was worth it whereas the beaver didn't and the 'carroting' caused more problems than benefit.

I'm no hatter and neither is anyone on this site. You might try doing a search on carroting, it has been discussed on here years ago.

 

[TheGuitarFairy]

what vintage are we talking here?
thanks!

 

[BobHufford]

what vintage are we talking here?
thanks!

Not enough to go on. The hat might not have originally come with that box. I have the same box that came with a late '30s hat, but the crest on the top of the box has me thinking it's not as old (no stars). I cannot accurately tell you the age of the box though ... sorry.

 

[TheGuitarFairy]

thank you, bob
just got these .. i think canadian, No1, not familiar w/ liner (or lack of) such as this.

 

[belfastboy]

Well, we'll be expecting a full report. I have to go find a brisket to put on my new smoker tomorrow and pick up a six-pack before the Reds come on at 6:00, so you're in charge.

I spent at least a portion yesterday reading up on the topic......it is in a nutshell, as they say, complicated!

 

[Blare]

If the FL ever had a mission statement it was something along the lines of the documentation, preservation & restoration of fine vintage hats from a bygone era, & the custom cloning of such fine hats that no longer survive. In large part to the WHAYWT thread & the daily fashion show it has turned into "run what you brung". Newbies often claim they have lurked the FL for yrs before joining, yet some don't seem to know what it's about.

 

[Frunobulax]

I spent at least a portion yesterday reading up on the topic......it is in a nutshell, as they say, complicated!

Good job. I'm currently three hours into a 10-hour smoke...

 

[belfastboy]

Good job. I'm currently three hours into a 10-hour smoke...

Ahhh, delayed gratification!

 

[Emilis]

Hello TFL,

Just wanted to know, how are the two sewing machines that are used for sewing the sweatband exactly called in English:

1) the one for sewing the sweatband together
2) the one for sewing in the sweatband in the hat

Thank you in advance,
Emilis

 

[ChicagoWayVito]

Hello TFL,

Just wanted to know, how are the two sewing machines that are used for sewing the sweatband exactly called in English:

1) the one for sewing the sweatband together
2) the one for sewing in the sweatband in the hat

Thank you in advance,
Emilis

There are a number of sewing machines that can be used to accomplish the tasks you are asking about. To find what you are looking for it is best to know manufacturer and model names.

1) For this item I am reading this as how do you sew the ends of the sweatband together to make it a circular shape. The answer to that is any flatbed sewing machine that can do a zig-zag stitch. However, you still need to do a little hand sewing to keep it together before taking it to the sewing machine, this is especially true if you will be belling the sweatband.

2) For sewing the sweatband into the hat, this is assuming a reeded sweatband you will want to look for a Singer 107-1 or the clone ASM 1107-1. Both are hard to find and from my understanding the ASM is no longer made. You could try contacting the folks at JW Custom Hats to see if they have any ASM 1107-1 to sell you (it will be at least $2,000 and up). https://www.jwrhats.com/ I am sure that there are other brands back in the golden days of hat making that made machines specific to this task as well but I do not know the model numbers.