Article: "No Cane, No Gain".

[Shangas]

http://www.theage.com.au/world/no-cane-no-gain-in-the-behaviour-of-students-20120405-1wflt.html

British teachers have noted a rise in disobedient, rude and generally poorly-behaved students since the abolishment of corporal punishment (caning) in the British school-system in the late 1980s.

I'm sure a lot of the older people here (and the parents of the younger people) have, or have heard, a lot of stories about being caned in school. Something that's definitely thought of as "golden era". I thought it'd be interesting to post this here for general readership.

My father used to tell me about children being caned in school. He said my uncle (who was an English teacher for several years), also doubled as his school's discipline-master. I've never questioned my uncle about that...I'm not sure if, in retrospect, it's something he's particularly proud of...

 

[MikeBravo]

It's a criminal act! No person has the right to strike or hurt in any way another person's child, or any child for that matter.

It solves nothing and can leave lifelong scars

There are other effective forms of discipline and punishment (though most punishments have little positive effect on behaviour)

 

[Miss Golightly]

It's a criminal act! No person has the right to strike or hurt in any way another person's child, or any child for that matter.

It solves nothing and can leave lifelong scars

There are other effective forms of discipline and punishment (though most punishments have little positive effect on behaviour)

Agreed. I don't think that the removal of the cane is causing the lack of discipline in the classroom - I think it stems from a lack of parental guidance and discipline in the home. For me, the idea of going home and telling my parents that I got into trouble in school didn't bear thinking about as I knew I would be in serious, serious trouble with them - that would instill more fear in me than anything!

 

[DeaconKC]

There is a huge difference in discipline and child abuse. I deal with abuse daily. I received spankings as a kid, at home and at school. It did no damage but certainly did enforce good behavior. Some kids might never need a spanking, but others will. The Bible speaks of the rod of correction, this was a thin rod about the size of a little finger. this was used to sting, not break bones, so even the Creator knew the difference!

 

[LizzieMaine]

We never had caning -- or its American cousin, paddling -- but we did have teachers who weren't shy about cracking you across the knuckles with the edge of a ruler if you got out of line in class. If you were really obstreperous, you'd be escorted to the principal's office by a teacher -- and she'd drag you by the ear the whole way down the hall to make sure everyone knew you were being disciplined. These teachers wouldn't last five minutes in today's climate, but our classrooms were extremely orderly. Everyone was in their seat, facing front, and paying attention -- or else.

 

[Shangas]

The Bible speaks of the rod of correction, this was a thin rod about the size of a little finger.

In Elizabethan times in England, when wifebeating was still legal, a husband could only carry this out if he had a rod no wider than his thumb.

Hence, the Rule of Thumb.

Interesting little fact.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Actually, the "rule of thumb" explanation is an urban myth, dating back no further than the 1970s.

 

[Shangas]

That is interesting. First time I've heard that. And I've read a lot about the origins of common phrases. This is news to me!

 

[Flicka]

The world is bigger than Britain... I think the same experience can be found in countries that never allowed caning. As far as I know, corporal punishment didn't even exist here when my parents went to school and wasn't necessary to enforce rigid discipline back then. Now, corporal punishment still isn't allowed but it's a vastly different environment than when they went to school in the 50s (or when I did in the 80s). It's not about the methods of enforcement but of the standards themselves.

And you know, personally, I don't think fear creates very decent people. I think teaching people to make the right choices for themselves is a far more efficient (not to mention humane) way of ensuring good mores. Punishment creates a system of people who are sorry for being found out, but not necessarily people who want what's right...

When I went to school one teacher complained to my mother that I was too quiet. During recess he heard me all the time but in the classroom I wouldn't speak without raising my hand and being given permission first. My mother just glared at him: "Well, isn't that how it should be?" He didn't dare say no, so they let it be at that. I may have started to speak out of turn if he'd caned me for not doing it, but I wouldn't have thought he was right!

 

[Flicka]

In Elizabethan times in England, when wifebeating was still legal, a husband could only carry this out if he had a rod no wider than his thumb.

Hence, the Rule of Thumb.

Interesting little fact.

It's called 'tumregel' which means 'rule of thumb' in Sweden too and we sure didn't get it from Elizabethan England. I always thought it was Biblical. However, supposedly Judge Buller (familiar to anyone who's watched Garrow's Law) supposedly applied a 'rule of thumb' to wife beating in 1782, so it's not entirely crazy (see Gillray's famous caricature here - I didn't embed the pic because you need to enlarge it to HUGE read the text)

 

[LizzieMaine]

Buller is cited in the article I linked -- evidence is that he was giving his own personal opinion, not an opinion with any status in common law of the time. He was roundly condemned and denounced for his views, but that part of the story never seems to get told. Wife-beating was illegal in England for more than a century before Buller was born, and the idea that Buller's "diameter of the thumb" comment was somehow connected to the phrase "rule of thumb" didn't evolve until the '70s.

 

[Flicka]

Buller is cited in the article I linked -- evidence is that he was giving his own personal opinion, not an opinion with any status in common law of the time. He was roundly condemned and denounced for his views, but that part of the story never seems to get told. Wife-beating was illegal in England for more than a century before Buller was born.

Oh, yes, people thought it was crazy, hence the caricature and no, I've never heard anyone who found a case it would be linked to. Lots of Georgian men would never have dreamed of raising a hand to their wives, but for those who did have an abusive husband, there's was little (or no) recourse from the law (I'm speaking of England now - here in Sweden the head of the family could inflict certain corporal punishment on both his family and servants up until 1864, and I have no notion of American law), unless the abuse was extreme (see the case of Mary Eleanor Bowes, which is an exception). Amanda Vickery's The Gentleman's Daughter does a great job in describing attitudes to marriage as well as the significant differences in successful and not so successful marriages - it's on of the best books on 18th century England I've read. Entertaining as well as of high quality (it was her Ph.D. thesis).

I would happily go on, but few people here likely share my interest in 18th century history and besides I'm derailing the thread. I just meant that though not a legal principle and not the origin of the expression, the idea of a 'rule of thumb' was around 200 years ago or Gillray couldn't have made fun of it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Here in the States, wifebeating was considered one of the lowest possible crimes. Public flogging of convicted wifebeaters was the mandated penalty in some states into the early 20th Century -- and this penalty was still being enforced in Maryland as late as 1938.

Superman didn't like wifebeaters either.

 

[Gin&Tonics]

There is a huge difference in discipline and child abuse. I deal with abuse daily. I received spankings as a kid, at home and at school. It did no damage but certainly did enforce good behavior. Some kids might never need a spanking, but others will. The Bible speaks of the rod of correction, this was a thin rod about the size of a little finger. this was used to sting, not break bones, so even the Creator knew the difference!

I'm afraid I have to correct you on this one; the Hebrew word used in the much debated and often cited "rod" verses (found pretty much only in Proverbs) is "Shabet" which refers to a shepherd's rod, which is a very tall (probably over 6 feet) thick, stout wooden rod used to beat wolves off of sheep; I've seen a picture of one and it would be analagous to a quarter staff or bo staff used in fighting. This fits quite well with one of the few other uses of the word which appears in Psalm 24, "Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me". The rod and the staff were both implements used by shepherds; the rod for beating off wolves and other predators, the staff with the crook at the top for gently guiding the sheep back into the fold. This word picture depicts God as the good shepherd protecting his flock from attacks from without and with gentle guidance within.

The idea of using a "switch" is a modern invention and was unknown to the biblical hebrews. When taken in context, I do not believe that the 'rod' verses in Proverbs are meant to be taken literally at all, but are rather meant to be symbolic of parental discipline and guidance in general. This is not to say that I totally disagree with the use of spanking at all, merely that I reject the unfortunately popular idea that spanking is the only legitimate form of discipline the bible endorses.

In truth, the root of the word "discipline" is "disciple", so that to discipline someone is to make them your disciple. If we want an example of how to do it properly, we need look no further than Christus Exemplar to see it. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't go around beating people to make them his disciples, but rather won them over by love and wisdom.

Sorry for the little rant, just something I feel very strongly about.

Ps. I thought I should add, for clarification that while I don't say that spanking is totally unacceptable in principle when done in a reasonable manner, my wife and I have chosen never to use phyiscal punishment with our children, so I choose not to spank.

 

[Miss Golightly]

Some kids might never need a spanking, but others will.

This idea doesn't sit well with me at all. I don't agree with spanking children - I was spanked as a kid - not often but I still remember it and how I felt afterwards - resentful is probably the closest way I can describe it. I think if children are brought up with caring parents, with love, with parents who spend time with them, that are firm and unwavering when it comes to discipline, spanking should be not be required. To me spanking seems like the parent is out of control and not in charge of the situation - it upsets me tremendously to see children being spanked - it is so unnecessary. My daughter is 2 and I have never spanked her - she is so good in restaurants and other people's home - she's not allowed to walk around, she stays seated for the duration of meals and has good manners encouraged at all times (I cannot stand bad manners in children - again the parents obviously haven't instilled it).

A couple of times she has thrown wobblers at home and a couple of times at the supermarket - again no spanking was required - just removing her from the shop and explaining to her that it wasn't on. At home she get sent into a different room to calm down and is told straight we don't want to see her until she's done - this has been more than effective.

I think it's awful to spank/hit a child if they are acting up because half the time it's just because their parents have allowed them to run wild or do whatever - you're punishing them for lazy parenting.

And I will say that before I had my daughter I thought there was no harm is a small slap on the rear but the second I had her there was no way I would raise a hand to her. I thought it was ok before I had her because my parents had no problem with spanking and I just didn't bother to think it through for myself and make my own decision on it - I would be spanking simply because my parents had done so - but it's simply not for me.

 

[DNO]

I spent 35 years teaching in an all-boys publicly-funded high school and never, ever raised a hand to a student. In the old days, I even had parents urging me to use force on their sons if they got out of line. I never did. In addition, I've raised a son and never felt the need to spank him. If you feel the need to use force on a child, the failure is yours...not the child's. Hope that doesn't come across as pompous but this is something I feel quite strongly about. A good life rule: keep your hands to yourself.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm afraid I have to correct you on this one; the Hebrew word used in the much debated and often cited "rod" verses (found pretty much only in Proverbs) is "Shabet" which refers to a shepherd's rod, which is a very tall (probably over 6 feet) thick, stout wooden rod used to beat wolves off of sheep; I've seen a picture of one and it would be analagous to a quarter staff or bo staff used in fighting. This fits quite well with one of the few other uses of the word which appears in Psalm 24, "Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me". The rod and the staff were both implements used by shepherds; the rod for beating off wolves and other predators, the staff with the crook at the top for gently guiding the sheep back into the fold. This word picture depicts God as the good shepherd protecting his flock from attacks from without and with gentle guidance within.

The idea of using a "switch" is a modern invention and was unknown to the biblical hebrews. When taken in context, I do not believe that the 'rod' verses in Proverbs are meant to be taken literally at all, but are rather meant to be symbolic of parental discipline and guidance in general. This is not to say that I totally disagree with the use of spanking at all, merely that I reject the unfortunately popular idea that spanking is the only legitimate form of discipline the bible endorses.

In truth, the root of the word "discipline" is "disciple", so that to discipline someone is to make them your disciple. If we want an example of how to do it properly, we need look no further than Christus Exemplar to see it. The Lord Jesus Christ didn't go around beating people to make them his disciples, but rather won them over by love and wisdom.

Sorry for the little rant, just something I feel very strongly about.

Ps. I thought I should add, for clarification that while I don't say that spanking is totally unacceptable in principle when done in a reasonable manner, my wife and I have chosen never to use phyiscal punishment with our children, so I choose not to spank.

Great post...very informative...and different look at scripture that I have studied for years. I may agree with you!
I have four children..all grown now. I probably spanked each of them only a few times during their younger years...as well as their hands when reaching for something they shouldn't. It did workout that they became more concerned with not letting me down rather than fear of a spanking. I feel that the love I offered each one of them along with the threat of them not pushing it too far..was a good mix.
I can barely tolerate an always screaming..pulling...dragging...threatening parent(who does nothing but that) or wants to argue with a kid for hours to achieve some result. No respect for authority and allowed a foul mouth and total disrespect for others is another 'peeve' of mine. I feel sorry for many teachers today. If my child acted that way...I fear many of you would be shocked and throw rocks at me with my remedy for the situation. Lets just say he/she wouldn't want to exhibit such behavior so easily again. I know..I'm old school/hardcore.....
HD

 

[sheeplady]

I would be seriously worried about corporal punishment being used in any school that was like my public school growing up. I'm going to give examples:

1. A teacher told a student: "You think that getting a state diploma is going to remove the stench of being trailer trash?"
2. A friend provided a doctor's note for when she was absent (her only parent was in the hospital in a coma). The school threatened her with expulsion for missing 3 days of school. They backed down under threat of media attention to 2 days after school detention.
3. A group of 4 teens smuggled alcohol on a school trip into Canada. They proceeded to get drunk (being underage in both countries) and destroy their hotel room. They received 2 days of after school detention and the school paid for the damage.

The difference between 1,2, &3? Who the students were related to as far as teachers/ admins.


I wouldn't trust any of those people to use corporal punishment effectively, even if I did think it was right. Giving these people (who were already bullies) more power would be stupid. I'm going to temper this with the statement that I had many good teachers, but all it would take is one power hungry idiot to ruin somebody's life. Undoubtedly, corporal punishment would be used more often at schools with at-risk students, because those schools have a hard time recruiting and keeping good teachers, and can be more likely (like my school was) to forgive unprofessional behavior because otherwise they might not have enough teachers.

 

[sheeplady]

Here in the States, wifebeating was considered one of the lowest possible crimes. Public flogging of convicted wifebeaters was the mandated penalty in some states into the early 20th Century -- and this penalty was still being enforced in Maryland as late as 1938.

Yeah, but a man could use marriage as a defense for raping his wife until 1984 in New York State. In fact, I'm pretty sure that law may still be on the books, it was just determined to be invalid by the NYS court system in 1984.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

My dad always tells me about the nuns smacking his knuckles with a ruler as a kid.

I have mixed feelings about the subject. Some kids just seem like they need to be smacked now and then, but people overdo it.

I got spankings as a kid, my parents didn't whoop on me, but they gave me an attention getter when I got outta line.