Let's Kill Hitler

[LizzieMaine]

I find this all fascinating reading. Thank you everyone for sharing.




I know this shouldn't make me laugh.... but it did.

I wonder what makes the crazies come out so badly. I suppose we still have crazies running around, but they mostly fail to organize themselves into anything "meaningful" (thank god)- and not anything as networked as the Klan. These people obviously had a few screws loose already, felt excluded from what they thought should be their status by birth, and then organized into these groups that killed people. I've often wondered if some of it wasn't fueled by the "prosperity" of the 1920s- which these people felt entitled to but weren't a part of.

I think there was quite a bit of that -- there's a myth that the "Roaring Twenties" had everybody riding high, playing the stock market, driving Packards, swilling bootleg whiskey, and dancing the Charleston every night till dawn. The reality is that "twenties prosperity" made a lot of money for a relatively small group of people, strung along a whole lot of others, and completely ignored the rest. If you lived in a small town or on a farm, the twenties didn't roar at all.

But the thing that really made the twenties Klan was, again, marketing. They actively recruited members with a coast-to-coast network of professional salesmen called "Kleagles" who went door to door like the Fuller Brush man, selling the idea of "100 Percent Americanism" for ten dollars a membership. The Kleagle got four dollars of that, his supervisor got a dollar, the supervisor's supervisor got fifty cents, and the Imperial Treasury got the balance. There was a lot of money in Kleagling, and it was more profitable for the salesman than selling brushes, soap, or the Saturday Evening Post.

They got their sales by, essentially, selling the Klan as the cure for whatever the potential customer was against. Don't like the uppity coloreds? Don't like the Eye-talians or the Irish? Don't like Catholics? Don't like Liberal Protestants? Don't like Jews? Don't like anybody who doesn't think exactly like you? Here's your chance to stand up for "100 Per Cent Americanism," for just ten dollars. Oh, and two dollars for the robe. And here's our catalog of key chains, watch fobs, lapel buttons, phonograph records, and approved literature, sure you'll find something you like heh heh heh.

If the Klan hadn't been so cynical about its money-making aspects, it could have been a real, credible threat in the Depression era. But it had blown its credibility long before the twenties ended, and by the thirties it was a bad joke.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Exactly my point.

Yes, well to quote my Dad: "The bane of my academic career has been that people assume, because I'm professor of Russian history, I must either be a Stalinist or a czarist, but I'm neither. I voted for Nixon in 1960 for Chrissake!"

 

[Guttersnipe]

If the Klan hadn't been so cynical about its money-making aspects, it could have been a real, credible threat in the Depression era. But it had blown its credibility long before the twenties ended, and by the thirties it was a bad joke.

Yep. At its height in the 1920s, prior to a well-publicized tax evasion / embellishment scandal, the national Klan organization had a million members.

 

[sheeplady]

But the thing that really made the twenties Klan was, again, marketing. They actively recruited members with a coast-to-coast network of professional salesmen called "Kleagles" who went door to door like the Fuller Brush man, selling the idea of "100 Percent Americanism" for ten dollars a membership. The Kleagle got four dollars of that, his supervisor got a dollar, the supervisor's supervisor got fifty cents, and the Imperial Treasury got the balance. There was a lot of money in Kleagling, and it was more profitable for the salesman than selling brushes, soap, or the Saturday Evening Post.

I never knew about the marketing aspect. (Most of the education I have on the Klan is from school, and that tended to present the Klan as something that happened elsewhere, rather than "here"- "here" being upstate NY. Basically all we covered was it existed and it was a dark time in U.S. history.)

But I guess selling hate is a lot easier than selling anything else, given humanity's basic nature.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We actually had a Klan Klavern right here in this town, which had a black population of zero in the twenties. There weren't even all that many Catholics and just a few Jewish families, so they had to go on excursion trains out of town to find fresh people to hate.

It's important to note, though, that the gimcrack Klan of the twenties had nothing whatever to do with the church-bombing terrorist Klan of the Civil Rights era. The twenties Klan staggered thru the thirties as a tattered remnant of what it had been, went bankrupt, and was formally dissolved in the early forties. The later groups sprang from entirely different roots.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

KKK ad, circa 1920s -- Ironically, the address is that of a church located in what is now a predominately African-American neighbourhood.

 

[Stanley Doble]

This talk about the Klan reminds me of a story. The author was well known in his time but I can't remember who it was.

He said that when he was a boy in the twenties, the Klan put on a membership drive in his town. His father got one of their advertising leaflets. He read it and said " this could be just the thing to deal with the bootleggers and hoodlums who are infesting the town". So he went to their meeting.

When he got home he looked disappointed so sonny asked how the meeting went. He said "all the bootleggers and hoodlums are already members".

Ha ha ha

 

[Stanley Doble]

Joseph Mitchell wrote a story worth looking up: "The Downfall of Fascism In Black Ankle County" about the Klan in his home town in North Carolina. It was gotten up by an eccentric farmer named "Spuddy" Ransom and tobacco salesman "Catfish" Giddy and broken up by a family of moonshiners with dynamite.

This is a different story from the one referred to above.

 

[ButteMT61]

Yes, well to quote my Dad: "The bane of my academic career has been that people assume, because I'm professor of Russian history, I must either be a Stalinist or a czarist, but I'm neither. I voted for Nixon in 1960 for Chrissake!"

My Dad dealt with some of that in the 60's. He learned Russian as many of his contemporaries were Russians (scientists). Ironically, today my son is fluent in Russian (reads, writes, speaks it) and we re-enact WWII Soviets. People see our gear and think we're "Nazi's" for Chrissake. Oops, you used that term already lol

 

[LizzieMaine]

This talk about the Klan reminds me of a story. The author was well known in his time but I can't remember who it was.

He said that when he was a boy in the twenties, the Klan put on a membership drive in his town. His father got one of their advertising leaflets. He read it and said " this could be just the thing to deal with the bootleggers and hoodlums who are infesting the town". So he went to their meeting.

When he got home he looked disappointed so sonny asked how the meeting went. He said "all the bootleggers and hoodlums are already members".

That's truer than you might realize. The Klan ran the state of Indiana in the early twenties, with a smarmy opportunist named D. C. Stephenson at the head of the organization there -- "The Grand Dragon," he was styled. Stephenson was the king of all Kleagles, made a fortune, and had an army of recruiters working under him, all selling a platform of 100 Per Cent American Traditional Values.

Until he went on a drunken rampage in 1925 and kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 29-year-old schoolteacher named Madge Oberholtzer. That one incident destroyed the KKK in Indiana, and is probably the single biggest factor in breaking its power nationwide. People got wise to the racket really fast after that, especially when Stephenson tried to bargain for a light sentence by turning over all his files naming the names of exactly which judges, politicians, and businessmen were on the Klan payroll.

 

[LizzieMaine]

But I guess selling hate is a lot easier than selling anything else, given humanity's basic nature.

Ironically, I think that's one reason why Americans tend to get wise to extremists quick -- we understand human nature enough to realize that they're probably in it for the money more than anything else, because that's an essential part of our national character. The truly *sincere* extremist, who deeply and honestly believes what he's selling, is fortunately very rare in our society.

That's why I don't think a Hitler born in the Bronx would have ever had a chance in the United States, even with all his oratorical/marketing power. Father Coughlin, for all his bluster, had less than a million people willing to commit to his program enough to support his hand-picked presidential candidate in 1936, and that's not much of a movement. Most people heard him talk about "the noble Gentile metal, silver," and figured out he must be investing pretty big in that particular commodity. Turns out, of course, they were right, and the good Padre was making a killing on the contributions of his flock.

I don't know the character of the German people well enough to make any judgement one way or the other, but I have to wonder, given Hitler's success there, just how "wised up" they were about such things.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

But I guess selling hate is a lot easier than selling anything else, given humanity's basic nature.

If this makes any sense, I've noticed in many a political argument/discussion I've had with people over the years that they can readily enumerate what they're against but seem a bit hard-pressed to articulate what they're for.

 

[sheeplady]

We actually had a Klan Klavern right here in this town, which had a black population of zero in the twenties. There weren't even all that many Catholics and just a few Jewish families, so they had to go on excursion trains out of town to find fresh people to hate.

It's important to note, though, that the gimcrack Klan of the twenties had nothing whatever to do with the church-bombing terrorist Klan of the Civil Rights era. The twenties Klan staggered thru the thirties as a tattered remnant of what it had been, went bankrupt, and was formally dissolved in the early forties. The later groups sprang from entirely different roots.

Thank you for telling me that. The only context we learned about the Klan was from the civil rights movement. I learned about them KKK in terms of The Birth of a Nation later, but never realized the two KKKs were essentially different. Wonderful that we had that evolve twice.

I see I'll have to do some reading.

Ironically, I think that's one reason why Americans tend to get wise to extremists quick -- we understand human nature enough to realize that they're probably in it for the money more than anything else, because that's an essential part of our national character. The truly *sincere* extremist, who deeply and honestly believes what he's selling, is fortunately very rare in our society.

That's why I don't think a Hitler born in the Bronx would have ever had a chance in the United States, even with all his oratorical/marketing power. Father Coughlin, for all his bluster, had less than a million people willing to commit to his program enough to support his hand-picked presidential candidate in 1936, and that's not much of a movement. Most people heard him talk about "the noble Gentile metal, silver," and figured out he must be investing pretty big in that particular commodity. Turns out, of course, they were right, and the good Padre was making a killing on the contributions of his flock.

I don't know the character of the German people well enough to make any judgement one way or the other, but I have to wonder, given Hitler's success there, just how "wised up" they were about such things.

I'm not an expert, but there are significant differences between German culture and "American" culture that I've observed. I'm not sure that you can point towards any one (or even a small group of these) cultural differences giving rise to Hitler. It really was a unique unfortunate set of circumstances that led to Hitler gaining power. German culture may have played a part into it, but you also had a nation devastated by War and reparations, an economic disaster, etc.

I've seen a lot of people comment that the U.S. is quite nationalistic (for instance, the pledge of Allegiance) but we're also a melting pot of different cultures and therefore ways of thinking. I think one of the issues with a mono-culture is that it is much easier to appeal to a mono-culture's values and beliefs. I also think it is much easier to incite a mono-culture to have a single enemy than a multi-culture. Some of this plays back into what you say the Klan did in the 1920s- whomever you hated they'd hate too- but it wasn't a single entity or subculture. I think that might be one of the reasons why such a movement like the KKK couldn't gain a more prominent foothold- because we're diverse enough in our culture to have diverse hates for other people. You simply can't weave a fake national hertitage of how we were wronged by one group because A) some of us are going to be from that group and B) You're going to have a whole portion of the population who say, "Well, they're bad but those damned _____ are worse."

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here.

If this makes any sense, I've noticed in many a political argument/discussion I've had with people over the years that they can readily enumerate what they're against but seem a bit hard-pressed to articulate what they're for.

That is very very true.

 

[Stanley Doble]

The German people weren't sucked in by Hitler so much as hijacked. It's hard to believe today, but Hitler was never elected to anything. The closest he came was in 1932 when the Nazi party became the most popular party in the Reichstag with 230 seats or 37.27%. This was far from a majority.

In the Presidential elections he ran second to Hindenberg who ran as an independent. Hitler got 36% of the vote, Hindenberg 53%. The Communist candidate ran third.

This made Hindenberg President and he appointed Hitler Chancellor. Not long afterward the Reichstag was set on fire supposedly by Communists. This was the excuse to pass an Enabling Act giving the government emergency powers, and allowed Hitler to suppress the Communist party, his main rivals.

Two years later Hindenberg died at the age of 86. Hitler abolished the office of President and appointed himself Fuehrer und Reichskanzler ( Leader and Reich Chancellor).

The next election never came. Hitler made himself dictator. In addition to Communists he sent trade union leaders, newspaper editors and whoever opposed him to the concentration camps. He carried out a purge of the Nazi party and liquidated the SA, the gang of bully boys who intimidated other parties at election time.

The most brutal power politics in domestic and foreign policy were combined with the best modern advertising, branding and publicity campaigns. One way or the other all opposition was eliminated and everyone convinced to go along with the Nazi party - or else.

It was never possible to eliminate everyone who didn't go along but they sure tried. And they succeeded well enough to keep the country in an iron grip from 1934 until 1945.

 

[jamespowers]

It was never possible to eliminate everyone who didn't go along but they sure tried. And they succeeded well enough to keep the country in an iron grip from 1934 until 1945.

That really isn't a big deal in the whole scheme of things. There are regimes that were/are just as bad that existed much, much longer and "eliminated" many more people.

You also have to remember that the German people were new to experimenting with a Weimar Republic. Before 1919 they had an imperial form of government. Therefore they already had a mindset that would accept what once had been well within all of their lifetimes. It was nothing new to replace a republic with what, essentially, they had before. No big deal. Their minds were already trained for the rule of one. Hitler seized the role and took it to the same conclusion. Fuherer, King---same thing. You just don't walk into a republic being forced on you via the Treaty of Versailles. The public has to have the mindset for it first. They didn't.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Unless you go back to contemporary reports and original documents it is easy to overlook what an able politician Hitler was, and what a talent he had for telling people what they wanted to hear and conning them.

 

[Guttersnipe]

That really isn't a big deal in the whole scheme of things. There are regimes that were/are just as bad that existed much, much longer and "eliminated" many more people.

There is no way to quantify peoples suffering by quantitative measures. Trying evaluate human tragedy with banal, technocratic measurements such as time, ethnographic trends, census data, etc. is highly problematic. How can a rational, self-aware person of conscious truly say that the Porajmos was wasn't as bad as the Holocaust because fewer Roma were murdered than Jews? The can't! For the victims and survivors of these events, it's all the same.

 

[jamespowers]

There is no way to quantify peoples suffering by quantitative measures. Trying evaluate human tragedy with banal, technocratic measurements such as time, ethnographic trends, census data, etc. is highly problematic. How can a rational, self-aware person of conscious truly say that the Porajmos was wasn't as bad as the Holocaust because fewer Roma were murdered than Jews? The can't! For the victims and survivors of these events, it's all the same.

I wasn’t saying one was better or worse than the others. They are all bad. I wasn’t saying one involved any less suffering just that more have suffered longer.

 

[jamespowers]

Unless you go back to contemporary reports and original documents it is easy to overlook what an able politician Hitler was, and what a talent he had for telling people what they wanted to hear and conning them.

Oh, I know well. Nothing has changed really. The difference being that some were more willing to be lied to.

 

[vitanola]

Thank you for telling me that. The only context we learned about the Klan was from the civil rights movement. I learned about them KKK in terms of The Birth of a Nation later, but never realized the two KKKs were essentially different. Wonderful that we had that evolve twice.

I see I'll have to do some reading.



I'm not an expert, but there are significant differences between German culture and "American" culture that I've observed. I'm not sure that you can point towards any one (or even a small group of these) cultural differences giving rise to Hitler. It really was a unique unfortunate set of circumstances that led to Hitler gaining power. German culture may have played a part into it, but you also had a nation devastated by War and reparations, an economic disaster, etc.

I've seen a lot of people comment that the U.S. is quite nationalistic (for instance, the pledge of Allegiance) but we're also a melting pot of different cultures and therefore ways of thinking. I think one of the issues with a mono-culture is that it is much easier to appeal to a mono-culture's values and beliefs. I also think it is much easier to incite a mono-culture to have a single enemy than a multi-culture. Some of this plays back into what you say the Klan did in the 1920s- whomever you hated they'd hate too- but it wasn't a single entity or subculture. I think that might be one of the reasons why such a movement like the KKK couldn't gain a more prominent foothold- because we're diverse enough in our culture to have diverse hates for other people. You simply can't weave a fake national hertitage of how we were wronged by one group because A) some of us are going to be from that group and B) You're going to have a whole portion of the population who say, "Well, they're bad but those damned _____ are worse."

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here.



That is very very true.

there were really three Klans, the first being the Reconstruction era group founded by Forest which worked to effectively disempower the Freedmen. Then there was the "100% American" Klan of the 'Teens and 'Twenites, which was largely a movement driven by anti-catholic and anti-imigrant animus, and the Civil Rights era Klan>