Article: "No Cane, No Gain".

[John in Covina]

What did the sheperds do to the wolves with the rod?

 

[DeaconKC]

That's what the staff was for John, defense, the rod was was for correction. As far as fearing parents, I never feared my parents, but the results of wrongdoing. A parent who cannot control their temper will abuse the child. Spanking must be done in love, my folks always hated having to give a spanking, but knew it was needed. A child throwing a tantrum in public is a disgrace to the parents and shows that they do not have control of the child.

 

[Pompidou]

It's a lot easier to say, "You're not allowed to beat your kids", than it is to say, "You can only beat them this hard", so pragmatically, I'm against beating kids with sticks and such.

 

[Shangas]

I remember reading Roald Dahl's autobiography, "BOY: Tales of Childhood". In it, he describes three instances where he was caned by the headmaster (and at least one instance where he was caned by a prefect). He described how the teachers were totally uncaring to whatever happened and that they wouldn't even take into account, his own version of events regarding what had happened that had caused him to be caned in the first place.

In one instance, he'd broken his nib during class (using old-fashioned dip-pens). He didn't have a spare and he asked a friend to give him one. His teacher accused him of cheating and lying and the headmaster caned him for it, even though he told him that all he wanted was another pen-point to finish his essay...

 

[Gene]

Forget the parents at home, the teachers don't care either. I was a substitute teacher for a little while and got to sit in the Teacher's Lounge of schools, including my former high school. It was shocking the way the teachers talked about their students...some of them seriously gossiped about them like they were in high school themselves, who was sleeping with who...it was disgusting.

Keep in mind this was the public school system of the United States, that underfunded cesspool of slime and dreck. No wonder the teachers are awful, who in their right mind would want to become a public schoolteacher the way things are now?

 

[MikeBravo]

There is a huge difference in discipline and child abuse. I deal with abuse daily. I received spankings as a kid, at home and at school. It did no damage but certainly did enforce good behavior. Some kids might never need a spanking, but others will. The Bible speaks of the rod of correction, this was a thin rod about the size of a little finger. this was used to sting, not break bones, so even the Creator knew the difference!

The victims of abuse often use the Bible to excuse those who abused them

 

[MikeBravo]

We never had caning -- or its American cousin, paddling -- but we did have teachers who weren't shy about cracking you across the knuckles with the edge of a ruler if you got out of line in class. If you were really obstreperous, you'd be escorted to the principal's office by a teacher -- and she'd drag you by the ear the whole way down the hall to make sure everyone knew you were being disciplined. These teachers wouldn't last five minutes in today's climate, but our classrooms were extremely orderly. Everyone was in their seat, facing front, and paying attention -- or else.

Oh yes, the old crack across the knuckels with a wooden ruler trick

It was usually applied to the kids of Italian descent who had English as a second language when they couldn't read well

Very effective, pain and humiliation

 

[MikeBravo]

Just a few notes and then I shall remove myself from this thread, it is too painful. It has brought back so many bad feelings and I could hardly sleep last night. I was only strapped the one time (the nuns used old shaving strops I recall), and it has affected my relationships with women ever since (long painful story).

Stop quoting the OLD Testament as an excuse for bad behaviour. If you call yourself a Christian, follow the teachings of Jesus Christ! "Christ" means saviour, part of what he was saving us from was the old ways of doing things. He died to replace the Old Testament.

His message? Treat others as you would have them treat you

And yes, I spanked my daughter when she was a child. It's a shame I will take to the grave, I will never, ever forgive myself (even is she has).

 

[Shangas]

Now I feel guilty for starting this thread. Mike is a very nice person.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

That's what the staff was for John, defense, the rod was was for correction. As far as fearing parents, I never feared my parents, but the results of wrongdoing. A parent who cannot control their temper will abuse the child. Spanking must be done in love, my folks always hated having to give a spanking, but knew it was needed. A child throwing a tantrum in public is a disgrace to the parents and shows that they do not have control of the child.

Great post,too IMO.
Of course that is the right mixture for success. If possible..I always explained to my child 'why' they had put them and myself in this dreaded position. They had gone too far...usually after warnings..or earlier direction of what not to do. If they disobeyed..they already knew the final punishment. If I didn't follow through..I felt I was cheating my child...'thus spoiling the child'.
I've told this story before but...
Several years ago my wife and I were standing in a checkout line at Target. A mother and her 3yr old son were in the lane next to us. The boy was riding in the cart seat facing his mother. As the line moved up to the candy/gum display...the boy grabbed a peice of candy. As his Mother said 'No you can't have that!' and grabbed his tightly gripped hand trying to wrestle the candy away..he started screaming loudly at her..drawing everyone's attention. As she got the candy away..he slapped her across the face with a loud 'smack' with a loud "NO I want that!"...and you could hear everyone gasp! She put the candy back..and moved forward to the cash register. He stood up in the cart(still screaming at her) and then 'Pop'..a slap across her face again..because she wouldn't go back and get 'his' candy! He screamed and fought her all the way out of the store to the parking lot. Many were watching out the window to see if once she got him outside..there would be some kind of 'punishment'. There was not. As she struggled to get him in his carseat..he was still waving his arms throwing a fit.
After they had drove off..the responses were indeed interesting. Some folks were upset and suggested that if any kid deserved a good spanking 'there he was'...and "I just can't believe that she didn't do something..especially when she got outside"!! Then my wife and I heard a voice say.." Why didn't she just let him have the candy..in the first place"?
If that had been my Son...I know exactly what I would have done...and long before that episode. Just imagine that boy as a teenager.
There are always those parents who may be abusive..but then there are also those who allow themselves(and often all others around) to be abused by their unruly kids. Those who refuse any harsher punishment and control no matter what happens. They would rather argue it out with their 'kid' at some point about 'what they had done wrong'..when the kid is standing there thinking...(so what!). So what,indeed.
HD

 

[Cobden]

Okay...going back to original point. The decline in discipline in British schools is nothing to do with the lack of the cane, and far more to do with societal changes and the lack of ability to enforce any discipline whatsoever. Whilst it is only a minority, there is a strong streak of "I know my rights" amongst a subsection of the British youth, combined with various societal and parental factors: the general anti-authoritarianism streak in the media effectively encouraging them to rebel as being they consider being the coolest person in school is more important then child learning something - an attitude shared by a worrying number of parents; the "I know my rights" culture; "but my little dearest would never do that, you must just hate because he's *insert whatever here*" from the parents; tall poppy syndrome (I don't want my kid to grow up to be some fancy la-di-da banker. I want him to have a life just like me. On the dole.). A teacher can't expel children anymore (well, you can "exclude" them, but there's an appeals process so convoluted that in effect you can't do this), can't put them in detention ("...but I can't pick up my son then, that's when I have my yoga class!"), they can't film them to show the parents that they are badly behaved as that apparently makes you a paedophile, and a teacher can't tell the parents that they are bad parents and their children are complete arses on their way to way to a life in and out because they won't believe you.

However, I feel I should point out that, in a school of about 500, you're likely only to come across one or two of these (except perhaps in some inner city districts) at a time. Most parents and children aren't like this. But when children who come in with knives and threaten other children with them aren't allowed to be expelled, and for some God knows why reason we aren't allowed to call the police...it is a problem

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Half the time, when I knew I was gonna get a spanking, it never actually happened. Mom saying, "You just wait until your father gets home" was more punishment than any spanking could ever be! Sitting there all day dreading it. Ugh!

 

[nihil]

In Denmark, the right to hit the students have been abolished since the 60s. know quite a few schoolteachers, and I've never heard any of them complain about the need of having the right to hit misbehaving students.
It's also illegal for parents to hit their children. It's an offense that is not taken lightly by neither law nor public opinion.

 

[sheeplady]

Forget the parents at home, the teachers don't care either. I was a substitute teacher for a little while and got to sit in the Teacher's Lounge of schools, including my former high school. It was shocking the way the teachers talked about their students...some of them seriously gossiped about them like they were in high school themselves, who was sleeping with who...it was disgusting.

Did you sub at my high school?

But seriously, a few years ago I was taking some classes taken mainly by teacher ed students. Two of those students I would have loved to have teach children- intelligent, hardworking, and so dedicated. One student (already a teacher at the poorest inner city district) did nothing but talk about how her class was full of future drug addicts, welfare queens, gangbangers, and prostitutes. She threw in a few racial remarks about her students too (think about the worst terms you could call a person of color) and she could see where each one of them would end up dropping out.

The kicker? She taught kindergarten.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

As I've said many times, there's always going to be misplaced priorities as long as funding for schools is based on how many warm bodies you can cram into the classroom rather than on performance -- a scenario which makes administrators reluctant to get rid of troublemakers and other disruptive elements.

 

[Gin&Tonics]

As I've said many times, there's always going to be misplaced priorities as long as funding for schools is based on how many warm bodies you can cram into the classroom rather than on performance -- a scenario which makes administrators reluctant to get rid of troublemakers and other disruptive elements.

This and many other reasons are why we are going to home school our kids as long as possible.

Reply to John in Covina - The rod "shabet" was for beating the wolves off in order to protect the sheep.

There are many reasons why I feel that these verses are not intended to be read literally.

Back to the topic of corporal punishment in schools - I feel that it isn't a good idea in this day and age. It is interesting to note that the legality of corporal punishment of children was challenged in the Canadian Supreme Court a couple of years ago and was upheld in principle, with the court giving some guidelines of what constituted "reasonable force". Basically they stated that it should be for children 2 to 12 years of age, with an open bare hand, no instruments of any kind, and I think they mentioned that it should not be on bare skin. There details can be found with a google search.

Overall, I agree with the court's ruling and think it's quite reasonable. As I mentioned before, I don't disagree with parents using properly administered spankings, but I choose never to use them myself.

My epiphany really hit home one night when my daughter accidentally bumped her head on mine as we were having a cuddle. She was crying and I was comforting her, and I said, "Oh sweety, I'm so sorry, daddy would never ever hurt you on purpose." And I meant it; I knew right then that I could never spank my little girl.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I did never get a spanking and I think it is totally useless. I once get a slap when I pushed my little brother too hard but it was an impulse action. My father apologized and said we (brothers) shouldn't fight either and it is wrong to harm somebody. I think I learned more from that than the "lesson" I would get from a spanking that was meant as a punishment. We KNEW our father was physically stronger than us. No need to prove it (except for arm wrestleing haha) We also knew he wouldn't abuse his "power".

 

[Fletch]

Corporal punishment is too tempting to humans' thirst for power. To anyone in authority, abusing it can start to look like an act of righteousness in the twinkling of an eye. And that doesn't even include those who prescribe it constantly and universally, such as some religiously couched parenting treatises.