Artful Dodgers?; Hollywood and WWII Draft

[Harp]

Last Saturday nite's lash for Notre Dame at a local pub
occasioned some banter about whether Errol Flynn had dodged
the Second World War. This led to a more general discussion of
the Hollwood crowd: who went, who stayed, and whom had most
probably dodged WWII. John Wayne, hands down lost, catching a
good deal of scorn. But somebody mentioned Gregory Peck's
performance in 12 O'Clock High, and Sinatra in From Here to Eternity
as two examples of draft dodging only to later star in war flickitis.
Thought I might lateral pass it to the Lounge WWII section. What do you guys think? Who cut out? And do you blame them?

 

[carebear]

In war, the morale is to the material as three is to one. — Napoleon Bonaparte

A couple thoughts...

Faking an injury or condition out of cowardice is one thing, but the fate of Western Civilization can hardly hinge on whether it is John Wayne or Joe Schmuckatelli who ends up dead on a beach with his guts hanging out. I would suggest having stars at home making movies and appearances to rally the home front and boys overseas is a more efficient use of those human national resources.

I would look at two things - was the actor apparently willing to go if actually needed and did they materially contribute their "star power" to the war effort?

Wayne's case is dicey and he seems to have not been overly pleased with his choices during the war.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_004.html

 

[BigSleep]

Also, though a star may not have searved in the military, did that person still place themselves in harms way by going front and performing and making appearences for the troops?

No one ever complains about Bob Hope not serving.

I personally dont know where or how many times someone like John Wayne may have made apearences to boost morale.

Nor do I know if his age or health may have kept him from military service. Be a shame to slam someone for not serving only to find out he tried and was rejected for health or family reasons.

 

[BigSleep]

Found this in a boigraphy of John Wayne.

"When war broke out, John Wayne tried to enlist but was rejected because of an old football injury to his shoulder, his age (34), and his status as a married father of four. He flew to Washington to plead that he be allowed to join the Navy but was turned down. So he poured himself into the war effort by making inspirational war films - among them The Fighting Seabees, Back to Bataan and They Were Expendable. To those back home and others around the world he became a symbol of the determined American fighting man.

Duke could not be kept from the front lines. In 1944 he spent three months touring forward positions in the Pacific theater. Appropriately, it was a wartime film, Sands of Iwo Jima which turned him into a superstar. Years after the war, when Emperor Hirohito of Japan visited the United States, he sought out John Wayne, paying tribute to the one who represented our nation's success in combat."

 

[Harp]

Pub Perspective

Be a shame to slam someone for not serving only to find out he tried and was rejected for health or family reasons.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. To recap, this thread arose from a recent pub discussion,
and was tossed into the lounge as a rhetorical topic; not to slam
any individual, living or deceased, nor to be a polemic, stir-the-pot
thread. It nevertheless remains that the Second World War required
a national effort that saw forty-year old fathers drafted, many of whom
were obviously not in their prime. Many film celebrities certainly lent their
persona and talent to the war effort, regardless of individual health,
family circumstance, or other issues perhaps not known to the public.

 

[Baggers]

All I'll say about John Wayne is that his popularity after the war seems to have vindicated him. John Ford and Robert Montgomery evidently didn't have any problems working with him while making They Were Expendable in 1945, just after Montgomery had returned from duty in the Pacific. In fact, Ford, Montgomery, and several others were listed in the film's credits with their wartime ranks as Ford and the others in addition to Montgomery also held Reserve commissions.

Also, in The Green Berets, take note of the expressions on the faces of some of the obviously real soldiers used in the film's opening sequences shot at Fort Benning. These men seemed quite honored to be working with The Duke. Certainly if he were being held in scorn by these men, they wouldn't have looked so proud to be there. And the Army might not have extended all the assistance that his production company got. In spite of the great "advertising potential" of the film.

Wayne contributed to the war effort in the best way he was able.

Cheers!

 

[Lincsong]

I was going to comment on John Wayne but I was beat to the punch.

Frank Sinatra was 4F, seemed that the doctor ruptured his eardrum during delivery and he suffered from ringing in his ears.

 

[scotrace]

Everybody Joins US War Effort

Film Stars Contribute.

 

[Tomasso]

I've heard it said that John Wayne wanted to be Ted Williams, when he grew up.

 

[MudInYerEye]

Too right. Williams was a stud ballplayer and did his bit twice.
John Wayne, heroic fighting man. Haha.
Joe DiMaggio was dragged into service kicking and screaming.

 

[fortworthgal]

I'd be interested in seeing what today's so-called "celebrities" would do if placed in the same situation. lol

I hardly think we have any Jimmy Stewarts or Eddie Alberts in our midst today.

 

[Feraud]

Today's celebrities would probably react the same as celebrities from the old days. Some would fight, others would run. It is human nature and not indicative of a particular era.

 

[carebear]

Today's celebrities would probably react the same as celebrities from the old days. Some would fight, others would run. It is human nature and not indicative of a particular era.

I'm pretty sure this isn't how you meant "would fight" but I would remind everyone not to equate "not immediately volunteering" with "running".

More than a few of the winners of awards for bravery and sacrifice under fire have been won by draftee's over the years. It is an entirely reasonable and honorable thing to not jump at the chance to go to war. The stain of cowardice only comes when you actively avoid serving, at all, once called.

If you can find something better for you than volunteering to carry a rifle, that still contributes to victory, go do that first. We can always call again if we need you in the actual trenches.

 

[Feraud]

I'm pretty sure this isn't how you meant "would fight" but I would remind everyone not to equate "not immediately volunteering" with "running".

That is right! I was generalizing in a broad sense.
I am glad someone clarified this.

It is not about fighting or running (a very black or white description) because serving one's country comes in many different forms.

What I wanted to address was the idea the people are basically the same throughout the ages and usually behave similarly.

 

[Nathan Dodge]

All I'll say about John Wayne is that his popularity after the war seems to have vindicated him. John Ford and Robert Montgomery evidently didn't have any problems working with him while making They Were Expendable in 1945, just after Montgomery had returned from duty in the Pacific. In fact, Ford, Montgomery, and several others were listed in the film's credits with their wartime ranks as Ford and the others in addition to Montgomery also held Reserve commissions.

In the book John Wayne: American, authors Olson and Roberts recall how John Ford berated Wayne at every opportunity during the making of They Were Expendable and it was only Montgomery's insistence that Ford "cease and desist" that Ford let up. Great bio on Wayne, BTW. I recommend it.

 

[Baggers]

In the book John Wayne: American, authors Olson and Roberts recall how John Ford berated Wayne at every opportunity during the making of They Were Expendable and it was only Montgomery's insistence that Ford "cease and desist" that Ford let up. Great bio on Wayne, BTW. I recommend it.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll chase down a copy.

But wasn't Ford hard on Wayne (along with a lot of other people) throughout their entire careers together? Could it be that Montgomery just wasn't accustomed to the way the two interacted? if Ford thought Wayne was a shirker during the war, it certainly didn't get in the way of their making films together in later years. And didn't Ford step in and help direct The Alamo when Wayne got in over his head?

A complicated relationship for sure. Things certainly were not black and white.

Cheers!

 

[Harp]

Alamo

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll chase down a copy.

But wasn't Ford hard on Wayne (along with a lot of other people) throughout their entire careers together? Could it be that Montgomery just wasn't accustomed to the way the two interacted? if Ford thought Wayne was a shirker during the war, it certainly didn't get in the way of their making films together in later years. And didn't Ford step in and help direct The Alamo when Wayne got in over his head?

A complicated relationship for sure. Things certainly were not black and white.

Cheers!

The story of Ford's appearance at the Alamo set was more that he could not keep away
from his protege's directorial debut; causing embarassment for Wayne,
who could not simply ask his benefactor and friend to leave. Wayne gave Ford a Mexican
Army staging scene to direct for old times' sake and continued his supervision.

 

[hatflick1]

Hollywood's Canteen

Lee Marvin, who was a shot-in-the-ass WWII Marine, often verbally heckled John Wayne for ducking military service but then acting as a Fighting Seabee and every other type of battle tested GI. Wayne did indeed attempt to enlist. Age 34 had little to do with it because, if you read Ernie Pyle, he often talks about guys well into middle age who were mechanics, pipe fitters, welders, etc., often servicing tanks or reparing bridges under fire! Hope and Crosby both went down to sign on but the highest levels of government intervened as they wanted the duo home and/or on USO tours for morale purposes and selling bonds. Many pro ball players served...but as military ball players...often never leaving the states or touring...as ball players.
Reagan never left Culver City and, from my research, never donned a uniform except to wear in a movie. On the other hand, Charles Derning landed on Normandy beach, day-1. Rod Serling, Twilight Zone creator, was in an army division which executed the only parachute jump during the Pacific campaign in Manilla. Sam Cooke, the fifties pop singer served during WWII which made him "safe" to market to white people. And Hugh O"Brien, the original Wyatt Earp on TV, was also a combat vet of the war.
As for the behind the scenes guys, I worked as a writer for many "old cocker" TV prodcuers who served as grunts, bombadiers and tail gunners, one was captured by the Germans. And he was Jewish.