An Appeal to the Yanks Around Here

[Qirrel]

I am intrigued by those trousers on the 1911 suit, Marc. I have a 1912 suit cut in the "oversize" fashion (extended shoulders, long coat, square swooping fronts, peg top trousers), and the trousers on my suit have the same exact features: Belt loops, side adjusters and suspender buttons where the front buttons are on the inside and the back on the outside. I thought they were rather unusual, but seeing yours make me think otherwise.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Can we speculate about where Jacob Faber came from? At least we can speculate on his tailoring tradition. Right off the bat, he's either French or German school. The fly and closure - esp with the hook - are quite distinctive. I'm convinced he's an immigrant from Germany, or could be trained by an immigrant from Germany, because the rear pocket flaps have that wonderful scalloped appearance that is associated with German trousers. Also, that chevron of stitching on the front pockets is something I've only seen on German trousers, not French. All the other features could be either German or French (and of course it's bespoke which introduces spanners to the works), but these two features make me decide the tailor is of the German tradition. Below, I've posted the side seam pocket of a pair of trousers made in Germany around this time. Note chevron stitching …

Side seam pocket of German trousers of similar period

 

[Qirrel]

Some thoughts about this lining. The strips covering the side darts are interesting, presumably the tailor could have bound the edges just as well, since the binding appears very fine elsewhere. Perhaps the lining was used to conceal a pocket stay? Pockets which are cut into the fabric usually require some sort of stay, and I've seen a few with skeleton linings which have exposed stays. The thing is, generally the stay is at the end of the pocket angling towards the side seam, though the location here could still prevent sagging.

Concerning the side seam, it appears that both seam allowances are folded towards the back and bound together. Can you tell me if the seam was pressed open, and then the front allowance folded back? It seems to me that would still allow for a cleanly pressed seam, instead of a welted seam if they were both simply pressed towards the back.

These are the things that have been interesting me lately, the tailoring and construction details. I'm about to start my third jacket, and I want the construction to be as accurate as the style.

It is almost certainly a covered pocket stay, following the underarm dart up to the armscye. From the vintage suits I've been inside, this looks to be just as common as staying diagonally, as you describe. I use the method shown on this suit when I make jackets.

The side seam being folded back like this is commonplace among tailors, even today. They do it, as you say, by pressing the seam open and then folding back the allowance/inlay. I am not 100% sure why it is done this way, but I think it is to save time. This way you only have to pipe once, or overcast once (if the jacket is fully lined).

 

[herringbonekid]

Also, that chevron of stitching on the front pockets is something I've only seen on German trousers, not French. All the other features could be either German or French

i've seen that on French workwear trousers (below) as well as German and respective military trousers of both,

...but not on dressier trousers before.




p.s. Marc, regarding the rather confrontational tone of this thread; i think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. YOU are easily the most knowledgable person on here regarding American suits, which is a not a bad thing, after all someone has to be... you may have to accept your main role as teacher or i think you're just going to get frustrated and leave again.

 

[Nick D]

Baron, would you say that top stitching is more common on German clothes compared to others? I see a lot of top stitching and edge stitching on the those trousers, which is not something I associate with either American or British tailoring.

 

[herringbonekid]

have you seen any other trousers with front darts instead of pleats ?

i have a pair, these early 30s ones, which have 2 darts each side where the pleats normally are:

 

[Nick D]

It is almost certainly a covered pocket stay, following the underarm dart up to the armscye. From the vintage suits I've been inside, this looks to be just as common as staying diagonally, as you describe. I use the method shown on this suit when I make jackets.

The side seam being folded back like this is commonplace among tailors, even today. They do it, as you say, by pressing the seam open and then folding back the allowance/inlay. I am not 100% sure why it is done this way, but I think it is to save time. This way you only have to pipe once, or overcast once (if the jacket is fully lined).

Thanks. I hadn't seen these on suits before that I recall, but it's nice to learn the other ways of doing things.

 

[avedwards]

I have a question about American suits. When did half linings start becoming the norm and is there any reason why they're put on heavy as well as light weight suits given that they have little utility on heavy weight suit?

Also, an observation: American suits often seem a lot more "casual". Where the Brits rarely used belt loops until the 60s the Yanks were using them over half a century earlier, US suits are often in more colourful fabrics and quite often seem to have "country" features on city suits (belt backs, action backs, fancy patch pockets etc.). There are exceptions to this trend but it still seems to form a common pattern.

Another observation: it seems to be the case (though I could be wrong) that off the rack was more common much earlier in America. Having spoken to a British tailor who started in the 60s it seems that MTM was the norm for nearly all British suits.

 

[Tomasso]

Can we speculate about where Jacob Faber came from? At least we can speculate on his tailoring tradition. Right off the bat, he's either French or German school.

That's the thing about American bespoke; it came from all corners of the world. Our immigrants required thier religion, their food and their clothes. If you were an Italian landing in NYC it would take you little time to find a tailor from your home town/region. Same for Germans.....the Brits/Irish.....and the Chinese....And of course the Jews made for everybody.....

Attempting to pigeonhole American bespoke would be folly.........

 

[Qirrel]

Some pictures of my 1912 suit. Made in Chicago.

The jacket:

The trousers.

 

[Tomasso]

In 1939 there were over 20 million suits made in America......40% of them in NYC.......

 

[herringbonekid]

here's a pair of trousers in a similar style with two front flapped watch pockets, dated 1926.
they also have the brace-buttons on outside-back only as Qirrel pointed out:

 

[Tomasso]

Do you see how Maier and Saul (two Jews) found each other in America's breadbasket.

 

[Rudie]

Maier sounds more German than Jewish to me. The back pockets have that typical German styling. I could be mistaken, but the watch pockets seem wider than the usual German watch pockets, like a mix between the narrower German (about 7-8 cm) and the wider British pockets.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That's a beautiful suit, Qirrel

I have a lovely Australian suit with that kind of smiling pocket (Is there a technical term for that?) with a similar strap arrangement.

Some pictures of my 1912 suit. Made in Chicago.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Can we speculate about where Jacob Faber came from?

I did some research on Mr. Faber. He was Jewish (the nephew of a rabbi), and came from Hungary to the U.S. in the 1880s. By the 1890s, he was a naturalized U.S. citizen. Faber's first job upon his arrival in Wilmington, Delaware, was at a local dry goods store. By the late 1890s, Faber was working as a barber, and he opened his tailoring business in the early 1900s. Jacob Faber died in Wilmington in 1951.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

have you seen any other trousers with front darts instead of pleats ?

Yes ... and by America's 'best' RTW maker, Oxxford Clothes. For decades, Oxxford's flat front trousers had (and perhaps still have?) two small 2-inch darts (closed "kissing", not overlapped) in front: one on each side of the fly front.


You can see them in this auction link's sixth photo: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oxxford-Clo...021712?pt=US_CSA_MC_Suits&hash=item53ea2bc190

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Another observation: it seems to be the case (though I could be wrong) that off the rack was more common much earlier in America.

From Brooks Brothers' website:

"1845: Brooks Brothers introduced the first ready-to-wear suits in America. Pioneers of the 1849 California Gold Rush, unable to wait on the whims of a tailor, flocked to Brooks Brothers to pick up ready-made clothing."

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... the watch pockets seem wider than the usual German watch pockets, like a mix between the narrower German (about 7-8 cm) and the wider British pockets.

This might --might-- be a fascinating example of adoption, adaptation, and/or creativity in American tailoring. Either Mr. Maier was mixing details from different traditions ... or he was artistically altering dimensions, shapes, and placement: adding his personal touch.

 

[Edward]

Regarding the size of the watch pockets, could that have been influenced by the size of the most popular models varying across each of those markets?