Aero to make jackets for new Hollywood WW2 Film, "The Monuments Men"

[Foster]

And when it comes to A2 jackets, one really must ask what are the desired characteristics. Originals weren't scrutinized like the repros are today. Some materials (knits) in originals wore out fast. Zippers failed then as they do now. For me, it is the balance of having a practical jacket that captures the essence of the wartime A2 which I can wear for years, contrasted with tendencies to be a purist and have a perfectly executed copy of an imperfect original which is going to need repairs or parts replaced in a lesser amount of time. If they weren't so costly I'd have several different ones and wear them until they disintegrate, but being that these are almost as much of an investment as they are a garment, the choices become more difficult. Sadly the usual answer to the question "Who makes the best A2" is answered by people stating which ones they bought. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all. The wrinkles and coarse grain which some despise are adored by others. Same goes for the knits and other details.

 

[Jeff M]

.... Sadly the usual answer to the question "Who makes the best A2" is answered by people stating which ones they bought. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all. The wrinkles and coarse grain which some despise are adored by others. Same goes for the knits and other details.

Yep.
Humans are such interesting animals.

 

[Jeff M]

Edward....your "Private Message" box is full.

 

[ButteMT61]

Well, as much as I tried, I could not resist this one much longer. Lots of talk here, but little in the way of detail, except for the usual "not accurate, lame hides, shoddy construction, wrong zippers" compared to X & Y.
Well, there's nothing second-tier (note I didn't say accurate) about an Aero A-2 with the possible following exceptions:

1) Used jackets
2) "Apprentice made"
3) "Quartermaster Series"
4) "Real Deal" model

Now, if one goes to Aero's site and reads about the above, one will find that they really are meant to get you in the door with a lesser cost and expectation on the jackets. Other makers do this, but call them "house jackets", meaning, not a contract-specific model. Aero goes their own way with contract-specific interpretations that apparently fall short of other's models.
I'd wager far and away, most buyers of mil-inspired jackets aren't looking for an (expensive) ultra-accurate repop. For more money, you can get one of their regular line - four of which I've owned, and two remain in my closet. Apparently, they're not any better, according to the experts. In 3-4 years, I've only learned enough to carry on a topical conversation with those that really know A-2's. I'm no expert on ANY jacket line - never claimed to be.
How do the "regular" lines compare? They're "less accurate". Are they? I say yes. Why? Because experts in the field say so. I trust them. Does it matter? Not to me, 90% of the time. For the other 10%, I have procured GW jackets. Can I tell the differences? Not really. The most important features of any jackets are qualtiy, fit, and do I love it? Both Aero and GW meet those goals, so the accuracy topic isn't too important overall. Craftsmanship of the total ~11 GW & Aero jackets showed me that they're equal. Craftsmanship not meaning "is it 100% as accurate to the original as possible?" Craftsmanship meaning that the man or woman who made it used quality materials, knows what they're doing, and did it well. Again, both are tops in my book. As are the people.

I've posted this question before, and it usually just dies away after a couple "for that amount of money, I'm getting a jacket that fits me right". What's the question you ask? How accurate is a repop that's made to custom specs? How many WWII pilots got custom A-2's? They got a jacket that was sized per the government contract - 34, 36, 38, etc. Not sure if there were "longs, shorts, regulars" as I'm not an expert. But to me, the big fat elephant in the room in the "mine's more accuarate than yours" debate is the custom sizing, and obviously superior materials used in an "accurate" repop. Want to be a stud? Order an off the shelf jacket and deal with it. Photos of REAL WWII military men show that's what they did…

Where does all this leave us? Aside from arguing, nowhere really. Could anyone tell the difference in a movie? not too likely until it's on DVD and they can sit there with their remote stopping each frame to critique - unless they're really, really bad repops. Do I think Aero would do that? No, I don't. Was "Red Tails" that much better because GW jackets were "hero" and ELC's were "extras" jackets? For some, yes. For me, yes. Why? Because I know and like John Chapman. It was fun to see great jackets on the big screen that were made by the guy that made my jacket(s). Could I have told the difference if they had been Aero's? I just don't think so. But that's likely due to my ignorance (bliss?).

Forums are filled with trolls, or baiters. Some of them masters. But these same fellas spend thier money and time chasing the perfect jacket - posting pics of the latest $1200 acquisition, only to sell it a few months later, often in like-new condition. We've all flipped pieces, but I have to wonder about some that perpetually do this while proclaiming the jacket as "the best ever" or "perfect", etc? I tend to keep my jackets that meet those criteria. The ones I've sold I bought second-hand and the fit wasn't quite right. The others were the first jackets I got before I knew about the upper-tier stuff, and had enough dosh (and 'nads) to pull the trigger.
Every hobby with an online presence has guys like this. The "know it alls" and guys with something lacking in their lives - the ones that want to show you how much they know, and how much better their "x, y, z" is. Reminds me of the people who go to a modest neighborhood and build a McMansion to show how much "better" they are. It's embarrassing. It's unneeded.

I've got the gamut of jackets in my closet from cheap to "the best". I like some of the cheapos the best for day to day wear without care and for comfort (probably because they're not made to fit in a flattering way). I don't like people that are intent on making other's feel bad, or less worthy because they don't wear a Rolex, drive a Ferrari, or wear a GW. The forums (TFL & VLJ) were surely not created with the intent to alienate people without the means/desire to acquire such jackets because they'd be pretty sparsely populated. Since I pulled away from the whole thing, I've received numerous emails and PM's asking why I left, and for those that read my last posts, stories of like "fed-upness" with the jerks. What these guys don't realize is that you can critique a jacket, without being a jerk. There's guys on VLJ posting up ebay auctions to berate the way some sellers LOOK! "OMG - look at this dopey guy" "Look at these awful jackets". The same guys post pics from their bathrooms and attics. The same guys should look in the frickin' mirror now and then!

Sorry for the long diatribe. Wasn't my intent, but it was the first post in a while, and really, I'm bummed that a great hobby/interest can be soured by a few jerks.

Carry on. I hope the movie and the gear are top-notch, so you can come back and discuss how much you enjoyed it all.

 

[Graemsay]

I'm not a vintage flying jacket fanatic, but from what little I do know there are inaccuracies in Aero's reproductions of the A1 and A2. But I do prefer the leather they use over Eastman's.

My guess is that Aero got the nod because they're big enough to be able to outfit the principles (and stunt doubles) without a long wait, they've got a history of dealing with costume departments, they'll tailor a pattern to fit, which Eastman don't seem too keen on, and they're based in Europe, which is where the production office will be.

As for historic accuracy, I'd expect that the pattern will be tweaked to make the actors look good, and not represent a typical fit for the 1940s...

The Blade Runner sequel / prequel / reboot is still on, apparently. There's talk of it having a rural setting. Could be interesting.

 

[Foster]

How many WWII pilots got custom A-2's? They got a jacket that was sized per the government contract - 34, 36, 38, etc. Not sure if there were "longs, shorts, regulars" as I'm not an expert.

According to the Quartermaster stocklists etc, these were ordered, stocked, and issued in even chest sizes from 32 to 54. 30-1415-32 was for size 32, 30-1415-44 was size 44, etc. Most likely if you needed one shorter, a unit tailor might shorten the sleeves, and if you needed a taller one then they would issue you a larger size so the shoulders would hang lower and result in longer length to reach closer to the hand.

There were private purchase A2's for those who could afford it and/or those who were on the extreme fringes of the issue size spectrum.

And there are those who have observed originals and noted different lengths - but if this was intentional or not on the part of the manufacturer, I can only speculate. The jackets were not tagged as being long or short.

 

[Fanch]

Well, as much as I tried, I could not resist this one much longer. Lots of talk here, but little in the way of detail, except for the usual "not accurate, lame hides, shoddy construction, wrong zippers" compared to X & Y.
Well, there's nothing second-tier (note I didn't say accurate) about an Aero A-2 with the possible following exceptions:

1) Used jackets
2) "Apprentice made"
3) "Quartermaster Series"
4) "Real Deal" model

Now, if one goes to Aero's site and reads about the above, one will find that they really are meant to get you in the door with a lesser cost and expectation on the jackets. Other makers do this, but call them "house jackets", meaning, not a contract-specific model. Aero goes their own way with contract-specific interpretations that apparently fall short of other's models.
I'd wager far and away, most buyers of mil-inspired jackets aren't looking for an (expensive) ultra-accurate repop. For more money, you can get one of their regular line - four of which I've owned, and two remain in my closet. Apparently, they're not any better, according to the experts. In 3-4 years, I've only learned enough to carry on a topical conversation with those that really know A-2's. I'm no expert on ANY jacket line - never claimed to be.
How do the "regular" lines compare? They're "less accurate". Are they? I say yes. Why? Because experts in the field say so. I trust them. Does it matter? Not to me, 90% of the time. For the other 10%, I have procured GW jackets. Can I tell the differences? Not really. The most important features of any jackets are qualtiy, fit, and do I love it? Both Aero and GW meet those goals, so the accuracy topic isn't too important overall. Craftsmanship of the total ~11 GW & Aero jackets showed me that they're equal. Craftsmanship not meaning "is it 100% as accurate to the original as possible?" Craftsmanship meaning that the man or woman who made it used quality materials, knows what they're doing, and did it well. Again, both are tops in my book. As are the people.

I've posted this question before, and it usually just dies away after a couple "for that amount of money, I'm getting a jacket that fits me right". What's the question you ask? How accurate is a repop that's made to custom specs? How many WWII pilots got custom A-2's? They got a jacket that was sized per the government contract - 34, 36, 38, etc. Not sure if there were "longs, shorts, regulars" as I'm not an expert. But to me, the big fat elephant in the room in the "mine's more accuarate than yours" debate is the custom sizing, and obviously superior materials used in an "accurate" repop. Want to be a stud? Order an off the shelf jacket and deal with it. Photos of REAL WWII military men show that's what they did…

Where does all this leave us? Aside from arguing, nowhere really. Could anyone tell the difference in a movie? not too likely until it's on DVD and they can sit there with their remote stopping each frame to critique - unless they're really, really bad repops. Do I think Aero would do that? No, I don't. Was "Red Tails" that much better because GW jackets were "hero" and ELC's were "extras" jackets? For some, yes. For me, yes. Why? Because I know and like John Chapman. It was fun to see great jackets on the big screen that were made by the guy that made my jacket(s). Could I have told the difference if they had been Aero's? I just don't think so. But that's likely due to my ignorance (bliss?).

Forums are filled with trolls, or baiters. Some of them masters. But these same fellas spend thier money and time chasing the perfect jacket - posting pics of the latest $1200 acquisition, only to sell it a few months later, often in like-new condition. We've all flipped pieces, but I have to wonder about some that perpetually do this while proclaiming the jacket as "the best ever" or "perfect", etc? I tend to keep my jackets that meet those criteria. The ones I've sold I bought second-hand and the fit wasn't quite right. The others were the first jackets I got before I knew about the upper-tier stuff, and had enough dosh (and 'nads) to pull the trigger.
Every hobby with an online presence has guys like this. The "know it alls" and guys with something lacking in their lives - the ones that want to show you how much they know, and how much better their "x, y, z" is. Reminds me of the people who go to a modest neighborhood and build a McMansion to show how much "better" they are. It's embarrassing. It's unneeded.

I've got the gamut of jackets in my closet from cheap to "the best". I like some of the cheapos the best for day to day wear without care and for comfort (probably because they're not made to fit in a flattering way). I don't like people that are intent on making other's feel bad, or less worthy because they don't wear a Rolex, drive a Ferrari, or wear a GW. The forums (TFL & VLJ) were surely not created with the intent to alienate people without the means/desire to acquire such jackets because they'd be pretty sparsely populated. Since I pulled away from the whole thing, I've received numerous emails and PM's asking why I left, and for those that read my last posts, stories of like "fed-upness" with the jerks. What these guys don't realize is that you can critique a jacket, without being a jerk. There's guys on VLJ posting up ebay auctions to berate the way some sellers LOOK! "OMG - look at this dopey guy" "Look at these awful jackets". The same guys post pics from their bathrooms and attics. The same guys should look in the frickin' mirror now and then!

Sorry for the long diatribe. Wasn't my intent, but it was the first post in a while, and really, I'm bummed that a great hobby/interest can be soured by a few jerks.

Carry on. I hope the movie and the gear are top-notch, so you can come back and discuss how much you enjoyed it all.

BUTTE, WELCOME BACK!!! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

I don't usually reproduce a long quote for sake of space. However, yours is worth repeating. :arated:

 

[Peter Mackin]

Hi Scott.hoped this post would bring you back...you nailed it in one as usual .

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Just as a point of reference: http://www.monumentsmen.com/
-dixon cannon

 

[majormajor]

Well, as much as I tried, I could not resist this one much longer.

Hi Scott. Good to see you back in the Outerwear section.

For the record, when I first got into A2s, it was an original, or nothing. I believe we are very lucky, nowadays, to have the likes of Goodwear, ELC, Kelso, LW, AND Aero - ALL making good A2 jackets.

You pays your money, and takes your choice. Well most of us do.

But then there are the jerks who think they are on some high-minded mission to teach us lesser mortals that we are fools to buy the jackets that they deem to be crap.

Anyone who disagrees with them must be an "ELC-lover" or an "Aero-worshipper". Yeah right.

These tin gods normally hang out on VLJ, but it must have been quiet on there yesterday, 'cause one thought he would give us the benefit of his "superior knowledge" - and then suggest we join them on VLJ.....

Post 22 in this thread is SO close to trolling, and yet the guy is so up himself, he probably can't even see it.

So, yes. This thread exploded. And when these guys try it again, it could well explode again, because I am afraid I will not sit idle whilst folks try to turn this site into another VLJ :eeek:

 

[Jeff M]

..
These tin gods normally hang out on VLJ, but it must have been quiet on there yesterday, 'cause one thought he would give us the benefit of his "superior knowledge" - and then suggest we join them on VLJ.....

..

I have no bone to pick in this particular fight.
I am a member of both the VLJ and this forum, and many, indeed I'll hazard a guess and say nearly all of the "tin gods" and regular mortals on the VLJ are also members in good standing here.
The VLJ is centered more on, as the name says, "vintage leather jackets", and as such, the reproduction market.
I've learned a lot about A2's and vintage military jackets from the obsession of some of the members.
I've had folks tell me they thought some of my jackets didn't fit properly. I didn't think a thing of it. I like the way they fit. That's all that matters to me.

Seems like every review on BOTH forums is "great jacket. Love it. Fantastic!!", and that you can't say a critical word about such and such a jacket/manufacturers products without incurring somebodies wrath.
That is not helpful at all.
I've been lead down the garden path a time or two by such glowing reviews.

I'd appreciate a more comprehensive, objective (as much as possible) approach to discussing jackets/manufacturers rather than the "fandom" approach that is so prevalent, with the "What's wrong with you, how could you like that jacket?" approach of some vs the "you are a smug, opinionated arrogant jerk" defensiveness of others.
I'm not holding my breath however. For some reason millions of years of evolution has shaped human nature such as it is.

 

[767fo]

Well said Jeff.

 

[Sloan1874]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I do think for somebody, who is a relative stranger to here, to leap in with a pair of virtual hobnail boots to what was a fairly innocuous discussion about a story seemed to be looking for trouble. There are ways to discuss and differ on subjects without throwing down a gauntlet and challenging all-comers to pick it up.

 

[majormajor]

I'd appreciate a more comprehensive, objective (as much as possible) approach to discussing jackets/manufacturers .

Dead right Jeff. I'm sure we all would.

But saying "the designs are more close to Mall Jackets than true contract specifications and the fit is so poor" about any of the recognised "repro" makers is simply inflammatory, and a million miles from "objective".
And frankly deserved of the "jerk" moniker.

 

[Jeff M]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I do think for somebody, who is a relative stranger to here, to leap in with a pair of virtual hobnail boots to what was a fairly innocuous discussion about a story seemed to be looking for trouble. There are ways to discuss and differ on subjects without throwing down a gauntlet and challenging all-comers to pick it up.

I'd say just ignore them.

Criticizing people for their like of jackets they feel are "more accurate" is just as bad as disparaging folks for liking jackets that aren't as "authentic".
Both are entitled to their opinions. Both may learn something if they are willing to accept that perhaps others may have a point.

Disparaging an entire group of people...the VLJ...is neither fair nor helpful to the discussion at hand.

 

[Jeff M]

Dead right Jeff. I'm sure we all would.

But saying "the designs are more close to Mall Jackets than true contract specifications and the fit is so poor" about any of the recognised "repro" makers is simply inflammatory, and a million miles from "objective".
And frankly deserved of the "jerk" moniker.

Then you just add snow to the snowball rolling down hill...and again, has nothing to do with the VLJ as a whole.
Why drag them into it? Did they vote on it and have an official "VLJ" representative come here to disparage Aero?
I am very fond of the VLJ, just as I am of TFL.
There are "jerks" on BOTH forums. They are the minority.
It is the larger number of great folks that bring me back to both.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Scott
Alot of good info in your post. We once had a personality on the VLJ(long before the Butte) that we nicknamed the 'Spanish Flea' who attempted to dominate that forum with ridicule of 'newbies' as ignorant amateurs only worth dismissing with belittling and name calling. His famous word for those who wouldn't come into agreement with him was 'Wanker' rather than 'Wag'. He also very much enjoyed posting eBay pics to make fun and insult sellers..attempting to start policing that auction site tracking down any who deserved his ire. Dragging a few VLJ members with him to hee haw and join in the search. Any objection from other members was met with 'Wanker'!! After awhile he was voted off the forum.. finally and joyfully never heard from again. After similar disruption here he was also banned from the FL.
It only takes a few with a certain mindset to change a forum especially when there is little to no moderation. If they do offer an exceptional expertise..then their tatics can become more acceptable as other newer members decide to follow the new lead. Any objection leads to lengthy threads that are left to die out on their own after much repititious back and forth only leading to hard feelings among members and a dread to go there again. So the dominance continues until someone dares to speak out again. If allowed..this attitude can become the core of a forum. The invitation of 'Come on over..we are accepting and friendly..You may learn something' by the elite can quickly transform into the reality that few newbies might rarely post..and many old time members have moved on in disgust. The few regular daily VLJ posters have either accepted the new tone..ignore it..or wait for someone else to speak up.
This thread has exposed one of the few who enjoy 'the game' of disdain for anything Aero..or even FL. It seems expected that any FL/VLJ member or Aero fan in VLJ attendance should be acceptable to this scorn..or just remain on the sidelines...and a more lighthearted approach to vintage leather jackets(especially military) is met as a challenge by the few who always consider themselves in the elite. Remember..it's not the VLJ as a whole...but only a few find pleasure in reveling in that glory that must be put up with.
HD

 

[majormajor]

Then you just add snow to the snowball rolling down hill...and again, has nothing to do with the VLJ as a whole.
Why drag them into it? Did they vote on it and have an official "VLJ" representative come here to disparage Aero?
I am very fond of the VLJ, just as I am of TFL.
There are "jerks" on BOTH forums. They are the minority.
It is the larger number of great folks that bring me back to both.

Good for you, Jeff.

But I left VLJ to get away from your skewed "objectivity".

If you and Persimmon love it over there - cool. More power to you.

But keep the snowballing to yourselves. Not here.

 

[derleicaman]

Scott, really good to see you back here! I missed you here and on VLJ and always enjoy reading your posts.

Sorry to see this thread degenerate into name calling, etc. I am on here and VLJ every day and enjoy both forums immensely. I have learned a lot from the folks on here and over there over the past couple of years.

 

[wild_balls]

Good to hear from you again, Butte! Well said!