Aero leather water resistance

[pawineguy]

...I'm kind of lost on who's trying to prove what?

Lean'n'mean is trying to prove that he knows more about Horween leathers than those of us who have owned many of their products / toured their facility / researched them, etc... even though he hadn't heard of them or Chromexcel before. The bottom line is that the world of leather is very large, there is much we can only guess at, but Horween is one of the few companies that describes almost their entire process publicly, as well as showing their tannage list, so there is really no reason to be arguing about known information.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Clearly NOT written by Horween, their site is very clear it's aniline dye and always has been. (plus noting on other charts that it's aniline) I would go with what the Horweens say.

You are right PG. Sorry for the confusion. You know how us old guys can slip up when we forget to take our vitamins..
HD

 

[navetsea]

@PG
yea I got that, before I'm confused with the word "pigment"
before I thought that was a general colorant not specifically linked to paint.

so is it correct to label all leathers with colored suede
are all at least semi aniline? including struck black (black surface with black core) leather as one?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Lean'n'mean is trying to prove that he knows more about Horween leathers than those of us who have owned many of their products / toured their facility / researched them, etc... even though he hadn't heard of them or Chromexcel before. The bottom line is that the world of leather is very large, there is much we can only guess at, but Horween is one of the few companies that describes almost their entire process publicly, as well as showing their tannage list, so there is really no reason to be arguing about known information.

Well the topic of this thread should make it clear. Aero is known and famous for using Horween CXL leather, although, especially in the past few years, they do offer a broader range of other types as well.
HD

 

[Lean'n'mean]

oh, I'm back from Wiki,

pigment is a suspension/ milky / opaque (paint)
dye is soluble/ translucent / stain

before in my mind I think
pigment is anything that used to make colors either in Paint (opaque) or Dye (translucent)

I bet there would still be confusion in the use of these words...

so based on that, I suppose:
-full aniline is colored using staining build up method only
-semi aniline is colored with stain, but then also helped with a layer of paint on top
-non aniline is probably a non dyed leather that is only rolled or spray painted on top, and will show its natural hide color (greyish-chrome and beige-veg) when the top coat is gone.
please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.

Not bad but....

Aniline leather dyed using souble dyes.
Semi aniline, dyed as aniline but finished with a resistant non soluble pigment layer to the surface. The colors are much more uniform than in aniline dyes alone.
Non aniline is all the others.
There is corrected or top grain which are poor leathers where the grain is damaged or unattractive. The surface is sanded & then an artificial layer is applied which is then embossed either with an imitation grain, pretty patterns or even perfectly smooth.
There is also pigmented full grain leather which has the same treatment as corrected grain but the full grain surface is untouched. the result though is the same.
Then we have split leather. A hide, unless needed for it's full thickness will be sliced into several layers. after the top grain layer is removed, the most valuable, the next layer is whatt is known as split leather. This is a much cheaper leather & of course lacks the ability to develope a patina,..it can have an artificial layer added similar to the corrected grain mention above & then it is known as finished split leather.
As the layers decend towards the 'flesh' of the animal the leather becomes weaker which brings us to suede, which is the lowest layer of a hide.
Nubuck leather is an aniline leather that has had the grain surface finely sanded. I don't know who invented it but they don't deserve any praise.

After that there are different kinds of false leathers such as bonded. They re not worth discussing.

 

[navetsea]

debate started when someone mentioning water not beading, need to reapply topcoat
then it got off tracked into coloring method that has nothing to do with waterproofing ( although I personally gain better perception of the use of word "pigment" from it )

this topcoat might have been an extra self applied weather proofing coat as in snoseal, mink oil, or somesort... not necessarily meant as a layer of paint.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Lean'n'mean is trying to prove that he knows more about Horween leathers .

I'm not trying to prove anything & all I know about chromexel is from their website. Very instructive it was too.

 

[pawineguy]

@PG
yea I got that, before I'm confused with the word "pigment"
before I thought that was a general colorant not specifically linked to paint.

so is it correct to label all leathers with colored suede
are all at least semi aniline? including struck black (black surface with black core) leather as one?

Not sure on the suede question, that's above my pay grade. Pigments are insoluble, they float in suspension where dyes are soluble and thus dissolve into the solution. The best comparison remains wood stain vs wood paint.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Sorry to be a know all again but pigments aren't insoluble as they can be dissolved in water, watercolors for example or in oil, such as in oil paints. I think the insoluble comes in when the medium the pigment is used in dries to form a protective layer resistant to certain liquids.

 

[navetsea]

Not sure on the suede question, that's above my pay grade. Pigments are insoluble, they float in suspension where dyes are soluble and thus dissolve into the solution. The best comparison remains wood stain vs wood paint.

great comparison, since dye is a solution thus got absorbed then when the process is thoroughly done, it might seep through to the other side/ rough side right? so when we see a leather with a brown or black core, then it must be at least semi aniline right? because at least it has been through dyeing process,
it would be a full aniline if no further process applied on it,
but if then the surface paint is applied for whatever reason like improving uniformity, reducing cost in thorough dyeing, giving another color as top coat (like back over brown core) then it would be called semi aniline right?

 

[navetsea]

Sorry to be a know all again but pigments aren't insoluble as they can be dissolved in water, watercolors for example or in oil, such as in oil paints. I think the insoluble comes in when the medium the pigment is used in dries to form a protective layer resistant to certain liquids.

intuition is nice, but references will bring you further. :cheers1:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigment

Pigments are used for coloring paint, ink, plastic, fabric, cosmetics, food and other materials. Most pigments used in manufacturing and the visual arts are dry colorants, usually ground into a fine powder. This powder is added to a binder (or vehicle), a relatively neutral or colorless material that suspends the pigment and gives the paint its adhesion.

A distinction is usually made between a pigment, which is insoluble in its vehicle (resulting in a suspension), and a dye, which either is itself a liquid or is soluble in its vehicle (resulting in a solution). A colorant can act as either a pigment or a dye depending on the vehicle involved.

the umbrella word for things that give color is "colorant" not "pigment"
when you use word pigment you are talking about paint
I just learned that an hour ago

 

[pawineguy]

Sorry to be a know all again but pigments aren't insoluble as they can be dissolved in water, watercolors for example or in oil, such as in oil paints. I think the insoluble comes in when the medium the pigment is used in dries to form a protective layer resistant to certain liquids.

You can't possibly be serious. Watercolors are suspensions, not solutions. PIGMENTS ARE INSOLUBLE, just because something appears to "dissolve" doesn't mean it's in solution. In paint, it's in suspension. All of these words mean specific things, it's not a matter of opinion. I am 100% convinced now that you are trolling us and I apologize to the other members for falling for it.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Leather can be dyed in several ways. It can be drum dyed which is prehaps the most common & certainly the cheapest method & is usually reserved for chrome tanned leather. Some manufactures try to cut costs by either using less dye or reducing the time the leather stays in the drums & then only the surfaces are dyed & the middle layer remains blue.
dyes can be applied by hand which is a time consuming buisness, sometimes only the top surface is dyed but if used for clothing or furniture the underside won't be seen anyway.
Then there is plunge dying which consists of soaking the leather in a series of dye baths, again time consuming & reserved for the best hides.
If a leather has a different colored surface to the rest, then it has only been surface dyed or has had some kind of pigmented layer added.

 

[navetsea]

yea, what I really want to make sure
whatever the dyeing process, as long as it happens
would that means the leather is automatically guaranteed a status as semi aniline with a potential to be a full aniline?

 

[nick123]

Sorry for drifting off topic OP. I hope you find this technical talk interesting at least. In my experience, water tends to bead off of Aero/Horween Chromexcel leather (both horse and steer. I recall wearing my steer Johnson (similar/same leather process to Aero's) in the rain more than the short time I owned my horse Aero, but I think they're practically the same. The Chromexcel leather Aero uses has a high water resistance.


I started the pigment thing. In retribution, I am now being carried across a beach against my will by a bunch of pygmies...

 

[navetsea]

what qualify as pygmy? are they water proof by design or needing a topcoat?

 

[Sloan1874]

Horween, and I'm sure the majority of other leathers, are stuffed with oils and fats, so they should shrug water off as a given.

 

[tropicalbob]

So, Nick, did the pygmies mistake you for Donald Trump? Keep us posted.

 

[Monitor]

I bet any tanner reading this thread is having a good laugh right now. XD

 

[Fanch]

It's a shame that Andy Falzon is no longer around to toss his hat into this ring.