Aero Chromexcel Steerhide

[Windstorm81]

This might have been discussed somewhere else but I can't get a clear answer. Is the Chromexcel Steerhide Full Grain or Top Grain?

 

[Superfluous]

http://horween.com/leathers/full-tannage-list/

 

[pawineguy]

This might have been discussed somewhere else but I can't get a clear answer. Is the Chromexcel Steerhide Full Grain or Top Grain?

Full

Edit - your thread title makes it seem like there has been some deception or lack of clarity. It is and always has been a full grain leather, for over 100 years. I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise.

 

[Windstorm81]

Thanks guys!! The link above is awesome. I actually heard from a very reliable source known on this forum(not at liberty to name) that chromexcel may have some correction and that there's been quite a debate about whether it's full grain or TOP grain. Didn't mean to imply any controversy. Title edited. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[pawineguy]

Thanks guys!! The link above is awesome. I actually heard from a very reliable source known on this forum(not at liberty to name) that chromexcel may have some correction and that there's been quite a debate about whether it's full grain or TOP grain. Didn't mean to imply any controversy. Title edited. Thanks for pointing that out.

Beware of people that may have an agenda. Someone who is anonymously slandering one of the most respected tanneries in the world is not someone worthy of much trust. Some may say that's too strong of a statement, but to a leather tannery, accusing them of lying about full grain vs top grain is a VERY big deal. Some of the worst mis-information I have ever seen on this board, and others, has come from those that are considered very reliable sources, but didn't (and still don't apparently) have their facts straight. There is no debate on whether CXL is full grain, only this type of innuendo.

It also shows ignorance on the part of the person who's making these statements, as there is a reason that Chromexcel has a unique surface, which is known to anyone who is knowledgeable about the product. I have pasted a link below, from ANOTHER MANUFACTURER, as I couldn't find a video from Horween. The hand glazing process, which is very labor intensive, is what gives Chromexcel its distinctive finish, NOT grain correction. I may be an Aero fan, and some will see this as a post from an apologist, but I have been a fan of CXL for many years before I ever heard of Aero, for wallets, shoes, etc... It should also be noted that in their most famous and costly product, shell cordovan, Horween readily admits that it is a top grain leather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fef9J1zLwxY

 

[pawineguy]

http://telly.com/I7UAI

Found a Horween video.

 

[Sloan1874]

I've been to the bloody tannery, followed the process from bottom to top (held my breath best I could on the ground floor, top one smelled amazing) and at no point did I see any 'correction' being carried out on the hides - and I was paying very close attention - it's as straight forward as you're going to get with tanning.

 

[Superfluous]

I've been to the bloody tannery, followed the process from bottom to top (held my breath best I could on the ground floor, top one smelled amazing) and at no point did I see any 'correction' being carried out on the hides - and I was paying very close attention - it's as straight forward as you're going to get with tanning.

One small point of clarification: the fact that a hide is not corrected does not mean it is necessarily full grain . . . there are uncorrected top grain hides. That said, I have no reason to doubt that Horween's CXL is both uncorrected and full grain.

I have heard that cowhide is more likely to be uncorrected, as compared to horsehide. My purely novice supposition is that cows, being more sedentary than horses, are less likely to rub up against fences and/or otherwise scar their hides, such that correction is required.

 

[frussell]

It's an interesting theory, unless you've actually been around horses and cattle much. If you've ever given injections to either, you'd know a horse's skin is easier to pierce. Some of that may be due to the fact that some cattle tend to have denser hair than a horse, at least in warmer climates. I've found most cow hides I've worked with to be more scarred up than the horsehide. Also, cattle tend to be lower to the ground, therefore coming into contact with more things that will cause scarring. Just my opinion, I'm no vet. Frank

 

[Sloan1874]

One small point of clarification: the fact that a hide is not corrected does not mean it is necessarily full grain . . . there are uncorrected top grain hides. That said, I have no reason to doubt that Horween's CXL is both uncorrected and full grain.

I have heard that cowhide is more likely to be uncorrected, as compared to horsehide. My purely novice supposition is that cows, being more sedentary than horses, are less likely to rub up against fences and/or otherwise scar their hides, such that correction is required.

Fair point. I did read this part of Horween's blog where they specifically say that the the FQHH used for jackets is Horween: http://horween.com/101/by-request-whats-the-difference/
I do see that in its Wiki entry that they doactually make 'corrected' leathers, though I suspect that would be fashion stuff.

 

[Grayland]

Until very recently (through reading some of the info on Horween's website), I didn't realize that their FQHH was full grain. It had nothing to do with anyone having an agenda or anything said here. It was because most of the Aero FQHH that I've seen (either in the flesh or via pics on this site) isn't all that grainy. I have two Aero jackets. The brown FQHH has a few areas that are somewhat grainy, but is mostly smooth. The black FQHH I have is almost entirely smooth. Sloan used the term "boiled licorice" to describe a hide a while back. I had never heard that term before, but it perfectly describes my black FQHH. My black jacket is at least 10 years old and have been worn quite a bit. I bought it used and areas of the black have worn off leaving brown undertones. In other words, any grain that is going to develop is developed. It is almost grain free.

In reading the Horween description, I see that their chromexcel is "hot stuffed". Perhaps that is the reason that it is smoother rather than having such a pronounced grain? It is literally plumped up with fats/oils. I do realize that the FQHH will devlop grain as it ages, but we don't see a whole lot of older Aero jackets - we mostly see the new stuff. I've seen a few older Aero jackets that are fairly grainy, but their grain pales in comparison to what I've seen from Shinki, the veg-tanned stuff from Thurston Brothers, or especially the BK steerhide A-2 that was posted a a few weeks ago.

Not knocking Aero at all. My go to jacket is an Aero LHB. Obviously the FQHH is full grain, but not as much grain shows as some of the other varieties of full grain leather. It isn't a bad thing, it's just different.

 

[pawineguy]

Fair point. I did read this part of Horween's blog where they specifically say that the the FQHH used for jackets is Horween: http://horween.com/101/by-request-whats-the-difference/
I do see that in its Wiki entry that they doactually make 'corrected' leathers, though I suspect that would be fashion stuff.

Two points:

1. Yes, top grain might not have a grain embossed back onto it, but it would still be sanded or shaved down from the top, thus making it no longer full grain. Those top layers that are removed are the strongest part of the hide, which is why it is such an important distinction, and also why "Top Grain" is such a misnomer and adds to much of the confusion. (i.e. "top grain" is actually leather that has had its top grain removed.)

2. As Craig points out, Horween is a large tannery and makes all sorts of leather, including for use in American footballs, basketballs and baseball gloves. (they always note how Wilson, maker of footballs, is their largest single customer) As I said in an earlier post, they admit that their Shell is a top grain product, because shell has to have that perfect surface.

I admit that I get a bit riled up when people anonymously slander a company for their own little agenda.

 

[pawineguy]

Until very recently (through reading some of the info on Horween's website), I didn't realize that their FQHH was full grain. It had nothing to do with anyone having an agenda or anything said here. It was because most of the Aero FQHH that I've seen (either in the flesh or via pics on this site) isn't all that grainy. I have two Aero jackets. The brown FQHH has a few areas that are somewhat grainy, but is mostly smooth. The black FQHH I have is almost entirely smooth. Sloan used the term "boiled licorice" to describe a hide a while back. I had never heard that term before, but it perfectly describes my black FQHH. My black jacket is at least 10 years old and have been worn quite a bit. I bought it used and areas of the black have worn off leaving brown undertones. In other words, any grain that is going to develop is developed. It is almost grain free.

In reading the Horween description, I see that their chromexcel is "hot stuffed". Perhaps that is the reason that it is smoother rather than having such a pronounced grain? It is literally plumped up with fats/oils. I do realize that the FQHH will devlop grain as it ages, but we don't see a whole lot of older Aero jackets - we mostly see the new stuff. I've seen a few older Aero jackets that are fairly grainy, but their grain pales in comparison to what I've seen from Shinki, the veg-tanned stuff from Thurston Brothers, or especially the BK steerhide A-2 that was posted a a few weeks ago.

Not knocking Aero at all. My go to jacket is an Aero LHB. Obviously the FQHH is full grain, but not as much grain shows as some of the other varieties of full grain leather. It isn't a bad thing, it's just different.

Correct, different... and again, the glazing process that polishes the surface also contributes to that apparent lack of grain. It also, unfortunately, give its detractors something to point towards when claiming it's not full grain. I also own the new Vincenza hide and love it, Vanson jackets that I think are fantastic, etc... the CXL steer that I own has much more grain than my CXL HHs. They are all just different and I like each of them for their unique qualities.

 

[Grayland]

I admit that I get a bit riled up when people anonymously slander a company for their own little agenda.

Could we please drop the detractors/slander talk? I've seen every jacket maker slandered here on TFL - none more so than Bill Kelso. Aero makes a fantastic jacket and is easily the most popular jacket maker here on TFL. I realize we are actually talking about Horween leather, but let's give the "poor little Aero" thing a break. They are revered and deserve it, but they aren't perfect and people are allowed to ask questions and even voice displeasure.

 

[pawineguy]

Could we please drop the detractors/slander talk? I've seen every jacket maker slandered here on TFL - none more so than Bill Kelso. Aero makes a fantastic jacket and is easily the most popular jacket maker here on TFL. I realize we are actually talking about Horween leather, but let's give the "poor little Aero" thing a break. They are revered and deserve it, but they aren't perfect and people are allowed to ask questions and even voice displeasure.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I am not defending Aero, they are on the board and are more than capable of handling their own affairs, and have certainly had their share of hits and misses. I'm defending Horween, whose name gets pulled into the middle of this ongoing ridiculous debate. They are not on the board and when someone tells a board member that Horween is lying about one of their signature products, then asks them to keep their identity a secret, I'm going to respond in kind every time, rather than let it just hang out there. (note how high on Google searches TFL appears) I love the debates about which jacket is more accurate, better constructed, unique, etc... however, IMHO, it crosses a line when someone accuses a supplier of lying about their product, which is what this anonymous expert is doing.

 

[Superfluous]

PWG: The supposed hearsay comment of a single anonymous person, presented without the slightest bit of explanation or support, does not a controversy make, and has not tarnished Horween's reputation one iota. FWIW, I have never seen anyone criticize Horween's hides based on whether they are full or top grain (a distinction you over-emphasize, but that is a different discussion), as opposed to the lack of grain or the rigidity of certain hides. Horween's well deserved reputation remains solidly in tact and unscathed.

 

[Sloan1874]

I seem to remember Andy F has had a few things to say about the relative quality of Horween (some on the boards, some in PMs) but personally, I think it comes down to different finishes and different tastes - I saw BK's Heracles last week and to me the leather was neither that grainy or interesting, the finish was pretty flat. The point about glazing is well made, they apply that stuff by hand and is obviously an important part of the process/finished product in terms of colour. The grain is still there, it's just that it requires working as Aero tumbled leather shows.

 

[Fanch]

A bit off the subject: I own a pair of Alden of New England shoes made from shell cordovan in "Color 8" (dark burgundy) that is the bees knees but is not, as I understand, made from top grain HH but is actually "made from from the fibrous flat muscle (or shell) beneath the hide on the rump of the horse" to quote Wikipedia. I also own a matching belt (Shell Cordovan Color 8) from Allen-Edmonds (impossible to find any Alden shell cordovan belts for at least the past year or so). Point is that Horween tans fantastic leather for many companies, even leather that is not top grain. Now, I just need to order a matching Aero Stockman like wdw's to complete the ensemble.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Wow..Aldens are made from horse's arse. Good to know Fanch.....lol
HD

 

[Sloan1874]

lol