A sad note

[Dapper Dan]

Personally, I'm a Christian. But I'm also 19, and liberal. And I strongly believe that the Constitution defends us as Americans so that we can watch all the filthy, disgusting, legal smut we can get our hands on. We can all bemoan that society is floundering. Who is to blame? The evil media, force-feeding us smut? Hardly. The media is merely an extension of ourselves. The media knows society will pay to see smut. Market forces.

The next argument is that the government should put some kind of check on this sort of debauchery. But the Constitution, the thing that makes America as free and equal as it is, denies Congress the right to impede upon the freedom of speech and the press. If pornography was limited, that freedom would be infringed upon. Should our government illegalize pornography because it is unsafe, because it makes us an unhealthy society? The leading cause of death in this country is heart disease. Should cheeseburgers be illegal because they contribute to widespread national fatalities?

Suppose we do illegalize pornography. Would we stop there? What if we went on a crusade to rid the evils of the world? Shall we destroy the imperfections of the world? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. First we illegalize pornography, then cigarettes, then alcohol, then unhealthy food. Where does it end? Eventually, this nation of wonderful freedom and beautiful self destination devolves into Nazi Germany. I'd much rather live in a world of self-determined destruction than endure a modern Savanorola dictating a Bonfire of the Vanities.

And would banning pornography really make our children safer? I wouldn't want my children to live in an aseptic world that denied them of anything that could be considered harmful, that denied the existence of human sexuality. Certainly I, as a parent, want to shelter my future children from harm, and in an ideal world, I would teach them of sexuality at a suitable time. But I do not believe in white-washing the world and deceiving my children. Truly, that is immoral and wrong. The job of the parent is to make their children ready and capable to take on the heartache and thousand natural shocks that flesh is heir to, to make them capable of being themselves and surviving in an imperfect world. I think that the consequences of illegalizing pornography would lead to a generation of children mere prey to the seedy, the immoral, and the unjust.

As for biblical condemnation of pornography, I don't believe Christ ever spoke against it. Certainly the act which pornography implies is forbidden in Leviticus, but so is eating pork, and I do that. The Bible also forbids wearing clothing of two fibers, and I am awfully fond of my linen/silk blend trousers. The only thing Jesus Himself spoke against was divorce. The divorce rate in this country is 50%. I'm sure many people who abstain from pornography also obtain divorces. Are they more moral, then, because of their abstinence from pornography?

But I do not, in any way, mean to be flippant or rude. I can appreciate that many of the ladies and gentleman on the other side of the fence abhor pornography, and I do not blame them. I, too, believe it should be available only to adults, and away from the prying eyes of children. I respect you for your strong personal convictions and morals. More over, I am happy that this forum is so full of morally upright individuals who hold themselves and their kith and kin to a higher standard than the undeniably low one set by today's society. But I also believe that the illegalization of pornography is a clear-cut violation of the First Amendment, and I cannot in good conscience endorse anything that compromises the freedom of America.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I sort of hesitate to post this, being new and all, and not wanting to offend anyone, but...

as an atheist who was brought up Catholic (and even Jesuit-trained ), some of the posts made me feel, well, a little unwelcome, and I got the distinct impression that some folks would consider me un-American and somehow less "honorable" or "worthy" because of my beliefs. I find that disheartening, and I hope I'm wrong.

And count me on the side of "to each his own"...watch what you want. Did you know that one of the big drivers of VCRs early on was so that people (including couples) could watch "blue movies" (remember this term? Yes, they existed way back in the Golden Era) at home? Many, many people (couples included) enjoy them.

If there's a curtain or a sign or something that says "Adult Section", then those who don't want to see those things are free to not go into that section, no?

 

[Dinerman]

maybe this was a bad thread to bring back from the dead.

 

[Slicksuit]

I hate to see stores like this in my neighborhood. I think this will be my last rental there. I don't want to support that kind of business. I don't know where I will rent my classic movies now. I will have to drive even further to stand for my principles.

Get a Netflix membership, for gosh-sakes! I don't even bother with brick-and-mortar rental stores anymore, unless it's an emergency. If you turnover your rentals every few days, you actually save money, and that's not counting the time and gas spent running to the video store. I hate waiting in line. When I was mostly homebound for a few weeks after some minor surgery recently, Netflix was a godsend!

In terms of porn...personally I'd rather the people have that as an outlet than having rapes or bad attitudes. :rage: Dapper Dan, I think you have eloquently stated your position, and I agree.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

I fully agree with you PrettySquareGal. IMO, to each his own. What is done behind closed doors, or curtains, isn't gonna bother me, as long as it stays behind those curtains and doors.

I too am mostly appalled by some of the things I have recently seen on TV. I guess woman feel more liberated by talking openly about sex, and feminine problems. For me, I'd prefer it if they didn't. Nothing worse then hearing a sixty year old woman talking about her sex life while I drink my morning coffee, just not the way I prefer to start my day.
I am amazed at TV commercials as well. It seems that every other one boasts some sort of feminine product or another. I just saw one today, and my jaw dropped. A certain feminine product which, I won't say the name but it is made up of two letters, to put it politely, might aid in a woman's nightly activities, is the perfect gift for her for valentines day!! UGH!!! Just what I'd want for a present!

As I said, to each his own, but I'd just prefer if these things weren't shoved in my face almost daily. It seems that by the time I get around to having kids it might just be safer to not let them watch TV at all.

 

[Ben]

Why do people get all worked up over seeing sex on the screen but don't care about violence?

It might be better if people saw more sex and less violence.

What does it say about people that they think it is okay to have murders, torture, and war on television, but if Janet Jackson flashes a boob, suddenly everyone is in a tizzy?

I really don't want to rant too much here, but let's face it, to any sensitive person who realizes that it was based on reality, 'Saving Private Ryan' was a sick movie. There were men who really had to try to find their own arms on those beaches. The idea that people can be connned or coerced into committing the most atrocious acts against one another is something that we celebrate? Here's a heroic movie? But the idea that two people might share the act of physical love is so horrid, so terrible, that we repress it, in our minds, in our films, in our culture.

Soon, it turns ugly, and starts to pop out of the edges and cracks of the box we've stuffed it in. No wonder so much sexuality seems so repulsive. We end up afraid of it. We shouldn't be. It is part of what we are meant to do, love each other.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

I fully agree with you PrettySquareGal. IMO, to each his own. What is done behind closed doors, or curtains, isn't gonna bother me, as long as it stays behind those curtains and doors.

I too am mostly appalled by some of the things I have recently seen on TV. I guess woman feel more liberated by talking openly about sex, and feminine problems. For me, I'd prefer it if they didn't. Nothing worse then hearing a sixty year old woman talking about her sex life while I drink my morning coffee, just not the way I prefer to start my day.
I am amazed at TV commercials as well. It seems that every other one boasts some sort of feminine product or another. I just saw one today, and my jaw dropped. A certain feminine product which, I won't say the name but it is made up of two letters, to put it politely, might aid in a woman's nightly activities, is the perfect gift for her for valentines day!! UGH!!! Just what I'd want for a present!

As I said, to each his own, but I'd just prefer if these things weren't shoved in my face almost daily. It seems that by the time I get around to having kids it might just be safer to not let them watch TV at all.

Now THIS sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with...I think society as a whole has gotten much, much more crass in recent years (decades, I guess). TV has contributed to much of it, but it's not to blame. They wouldn't show it if people didn't want to watch it (I'm speaking of all of the gross, lewd, over-the-top "talk" shows, "reality" shows, and celebrity "news" kind of crap). There was some pretty dumb stuff on in the early days of television, but at least it wasn't *in depth detailed discussions* of one's private lives (or parts) by uneducated cretins with bad grammar.

That's part of what makes this site appealing to me...style, courtesy, manners, consideration for others, etc., are traits that are admired.

And don't get me wrong...I'm no prude (by any stretch of the imagination LOL!), but I'd prefer not to be bombarded by ugly, dumb people talking about their sex lives all the time...nor do I want to hear about cures for ED, personal products, etc....believe me, if I need something along those lines, I'll ask for 'em!

 

[Samsa]

I sort of hesitate to post this, being new and all, and not wanting to offend anyone, but...

as an atheist who was brought up Catholic (and even Jesuit-trained ), some of the posts made me feel, well, a little unwelcome, and I got the distinct impression that some folks would consider me un-American and somehow less "honorable" or "worthy" because of my beliefs. I find that disheartening, and I hope I'm wrong.

I don't think that you are unwelcome here because of your beliefs. The Lounge has hundreds and hundreds of members, and the vast majority have so far refrained from weighing in on this particular social issue; some of those who have remained silent, I would be willing to bet, share your views (whatever your views may be). I suspect that, given how prevalent pornography is on the internet, and how diverse our members our, a good portion of the Lounge's members consume or have at some point consumed pornography, maybe even regularly.

For a look at the scope of the problem (or not, depending on your views) you might want to examine this link.

As per various suggestions that have been thrown about regarding pornography... even if one were to criminalize pornography, there would be no way to stop it. It would be even more futile than the war on drugs. There is simply no way to police the internet effectively.

That being said, I do think it is imperative to make sure that children are not exposed to pornography. This has been mentioned earlier in this thread, and it hit home for me; I first came into contact with pornography at the age 10 (not in a context of abuse, thankfully), so know first hand that it can have an unpleasant effect on young people.

maybe this was a bad thread to bring back from the dead.

I think everyone has been quite civil, actually. And I think bringing awareness of pornography to the fore is a good thing; it remains the elephant in the room. (Not necessarily this room, but this country.) 12% of all websites are pornographic; 40 million U.S. residents access pornography websites every day... the list goes on.

 

[MrBern]

the deuce

I've worked in publishing in the TimesSquare area for over 20 years.
Occasionally I'll read or hear about someone lamenting the disney-fication of TimesSquare.
Yes, I miss the little mom & pop operations like the hot dog shop on 42nd St, or the littl one story working mans bars...
I'm sorry to see them replaced by prefab restaurants that pretend to have existed in this area for generations. its a shame to see the areas character displaced or destroyed.
But I sure as hell dont miss all the porn, the hookers, the drugdealers, etc.....

 

[RedPop4]

My, how this place has changed from before the time I started.

Not to get on a soapbox or anything, but it's interesting that two pages back, someone said they felt most unwelcome because of the religious beliefs posted up to that point on the thread.

I get the opposite vibe having read threads in this room over the last two or three months. With all the alternative lifestyles, atheists, agnostics, etc. many of whom were once involved in religion....none so harsh as the convert, especially those who leave the Roman Church....I've felt rather uncomfortable and have not participated on those threads.

Amazing at the varied perspectives.fftopic: fftopic:

 

[Flying Scotsman]

My, how this place has changed from before the time I started.

Not to get on a soapbox or anything, but it's interesting that two pages back, someone said they felt most unwelcome because of the religious beliefs posted up to that point on the thread.

Excuse me. I didn't say "most unwelcome". I said "a little unwelcome". Please don't try to turn my post into something it isn't. I didn't say I felt that way because of someone's beliefs. I said I felt that way because I got the impression that I would be considered un-American for not believing the same way (e.g., that the Bible is the foundation of the United States;
ETA: Or some statements that the FL was a community because of the religious beliefs of some of the members, which would leave me out, as I'm atheist).

That's all

 

[Elaina]

Well, RedPop and Flying Scotsman:

I often feel unwelcome. But I tend to think it's all in my head. Those that I've met and taked to via PM have been most courteous and friendly.

As to all the controversial matters, really, I got an opinion (and when do I not?) that I share or don't, but taking offense to it makes everybody feel bad. I'm pretty sure that most take it as I do: either fun for the debate, or just a place to share ideals that may be different from ones own. When you start making it feel personal then it can be a whole lot more heated then it should be. Really, this is why I don't discuss religion, politics or something else at my house. I just wish I could remember what that something else is, because really, I'm getting old. And I KNOW it's something juicy and good I shouldn't talk about, but probably do anyway. (And my husband and I DO talk politics. Me telling him how to vote .)

Now shake hands and play nice, or I'll have to start telling really bad jokes to you two (because my sense of humor is warped.)

 

[CanadaDoll]

Why do people get all worked up over seeing sex on the screen but don't care about violence?

It might be better if people saw more sex and less violence.

What does it say about people that they think it is okay to have murders, torture, and war on television, but if Janet Jackson flashes a boob, suddenly everyone is in a tizzy?

I really don't want to rant too much here, but let's face it, to any sensitive person who realizes that it was based on reality, 'Saving Private Ryan' was a sick movie. There were men who really had to try to find their own arms on those beaches. The idea that people can be connned or coerced into committing the most atrocious acts against one another is something that we celebrate? Here's a heroic movie? But the idea that two people might share the act of physical love is so horrid, so terrible, that we repress it, in our minds, in our films, in our culture.

Soon, it turns ugly, and starts to pop out of the edges and cracks of the box we've stuffed it in. No wonder so much sexuality seems so repulsive. We end up afraid of it. We shouldn't be. It is part of what we are meant to do, love each other.

You've got a good point there Ben with regards to our squeamishness regarding sex, but our indifference toward violence. It's quite a discussion in many of my education classes, because they are geared toward teaching children, and nowadays it seems as though kids are seeing a lot more of a lot worse than when we were six and seven. (by we I mean the other students in my class) It makes me nervous when I hear some of my second graders discuss the "cool" parts of the Saw series. At 21 I can't even handle thinking about it!
The big question for me is "how will this affect the children?"



I agree with Daisy's point of view, if people want to look at something in the privacy of their own home, that's their choice, so long as it is done respectfully of others.
However MK I applaud you for sticking to your morals and foregoing the easy for the sake of your self respect:eusa_clap :eusa_clap It's not always an easy thing to do!

 

[pablocham]

I like freedom. I think that some people do things that I wouldn't with that freedom: smoke, drink, drugs, etc. But still I would rather live in a society where adults are free to make mistakes and live their lives. I have made tons of mistakes; more than I can remember, and if I could remember them it would be more than I could count. Many years later, I think those mistakes have made me a better person than I was before. I am not a Christian or a member of any religion and I don't think that I have life so figured out that I should be telling other people how to live.

Also, it seems odd to me that we aren't allowed to talk about politics on this board, but people of certain approved religions are allowed to brass off and cast aspersions on those who do not count themselves among their number.

 

[reetpleat]

Well, a few thoughts. I have no interest in inflaming anyone. Every one has been quite civil.

1, I have no objection to pornography and do not consider anyone that partakes to be lacking in character, morals or any other good virtues.

2, However, I do think there is a lot of truth to original post. Pornography is a manifestation of men's lonliness for intimacy. In our society men are tought to only experience connection and intimacy through sex, so they tend to become lonely and turn to pornography. And yes, it does not really help. It makes men feel more desparate for intimacy, not less. But I see it as a symptom or indicator of the problem. I do not see it as a problem in and of itself and do not object to it.

3, I gotta object to the implication of one member that there was a golden era in which criminals respected innocent people and had any code of honor. Criminals and bad people are criminals and bad people. Always have been and always will. Read about the slums of New York or london in the 1800s if you want to see psycopathic criminality, and murder.

4, I think that it is America's puritanical obsesive view of sex being evil (one thing out country was founded on) to be the root of our obsession with sex. Other countries do not get so upset about sex and it does not seem to be such a problem for them. America seems to be overrun by it.

anyway, I do feel everyone is free to feel the way they do about it. But had to chime in.

It is interesting how an interest in vintage clothing will draw in such disparate people.

 

[happyfilmluvguy]

I am fully responsible for this thread being dug up from the
grave, so I think I need to have my own word on this.

I just posted a response to the thread I created to start reviving threads, which was a suggestion. In no means was I trying to cause any trouble, but here it seems I have. The world is always changing. You can blame it on television, you can blame it on video games, you can blame it on anything you like, BUT you must except the fact that the world is not perfect. Everyone makes mistakes, which I did here by believing that some old threads shouldn't be ignored as they are perfectly good and honest ones.

Now, this thread's purpose was not to offend anyone, nor to dishonor anyone. I am not in charge here, but I feel a responsibility for causing this thread to be revived. The purpose of this thread (to me that is) was to say that independent video stores have gone into a rut partially because of the adult industry. The adult industry has not harmed anything but our thoughts. It has taught us that the world is not perfect. This may be hard to realize but adult entertainment has been around for centuries. It was around when Socrates was around. It was around when Abe Lincoln was president, and it was around during the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, the exact time periods we discuss here. At that time it was all "hush hush", though people knew about it. These things are not new to the world. None of these other topics I believe were mentioned, like politics and religion. These two subjects are the most ground breaking ones in existance. Your religious beliefs, and your political beliefs. These same subjects cause trouble, which it has already in the past and has here. I will be honest when I say some of this thread is a perfect example of a world gone bad. I will say IT HAS NOT! Now, personally I think this thread should be closed, but it is not my decision, and I apologize to MK if it has upset him. Can we PLEASE get back to an honest thread? Because this one really is depressing me.

Hug, and be happy! We have lots of time to think about the terrors on Earth

PS. Classic movies are available at your local library at no cost at all except your will to go there and pick a few up.

 

[Spitfire]

Chamorro and Dapper Dan - Bravo!!!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Look at The Roman Empire, Ancient Greece....I think sex and porn is here to stay. So why don't we just get used to the concept and start living with it.

My country was one of the first countries in the world to legallize porn. Back in the sixties.
But if you come here looking for it, you will be pretty dissapointed.
We do not walk around naked. We do not have sex in public. We do not all wear strange leathercostumes with {odd objects} sticking out everywhere.
We keep it aside - for those who wants it or need it.
And we do not make a great fuss about it. Now, do not get me wrong here - but I have seen more stripclubs, cathouses and pornshops in USA, than I have ever seen here, where porn is free. And no problem.
If a videostore has to sell or rent out porn in order to sell or rent out old, classic movies too, be happy! Buy/rent your classic movies and don't look at the porn. What's the big deal? Afraid that some porn might rub of on you classic movie?

 

[Spitfire]

That was cool to see the venerable (and I mean that in a nice way) Cabinetman's first post. Some topics are always timely. I hate to be in my favorite booksellers' and be suddenly trapped in the porn-video curtained-off area. Ew, some of those titles will be with me until my death 50 years from now! Well, then, I also hate to suddenly find myself in certain aisles of the supermarket and drug store, embarrassed at every turn and seemingly unable to escape.

To be quite honest, I get more embarrased when I find magazines like Gun or Soldier of Fortune on the shelves.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Personally, I'm a Christian. But I'm also 19, and liberal. And I strongly believe that the Constitution defends us as Americans so that we can watch all the filthy, disgusting, legal smut we can get our hands on. We can all bemoan that society is floundering. Who is to blame? The evil media, force-feeding us smut? Hardly. The media is merely an extension of ourselves. The media knows society will pay to see smut. Market forces.

The next argument is that the government should put some kind of check on this sort of debauchery. But the Constitution, the thing that makes America as free and equal as it is, denies Congress the right to impede upon the freedom of speech and the press.

Dapper Dan, at 19, I don't think I was as eloquent as you. Maybe not even currently. ; ) Very well said, however, I have to disagree with some points.

Freedom of speech is not protected or guaranteed or legal in all places and spaces. For example, we are all guests at the FL. MK and the bartenders have a right to lay down the rules, just as a business does. So I don't agree that any sort of government intervention on where and how porn can be sold or distributed is in violation of the Constitution; it isn't. Now, banning all porn, that is something else, but I think what MK and some of us are suggesting is that people choose to not do the porn thing based upon morals. Now, I am not a Christian, but it is entirely possible to make moral decisions based upon a moral compass other than religion. But to be clear, personally if someone wants to watch their stuff in the privacy of their home, and even rent it, I don't think that should be illegal as long as the porn itself does not violate any laws, like exploiting children.

The other point in which I strongly disagree is the statement that the media is an extension of ourselves. I work in marketing, and can tell you that many powerful businesses PAY marketers to create markets for products they might not normally want or need. Also, I've written about this before here, but children are highly influenced by the media, and even though their parents *should* be at home guiding what they see, usually they are not. Or, as in my example, they may have something on that at one time would be "family safe" like the Today show but now is not, in my opinion.

Decorum, morals, manners, propriety- those are subjective terms, indeed. If you put on the TV today you will be taught that it's desirable and cool to be 13 forever, and to pimp and whore yourself out, generally speaking. (Yes I know there are good stations. Just saying mostly the case.) If you put on the TV during the Golden Era, you would not find that to be the case. Sure they had racy shows and magazines. I'm not saying there wasn't porn- of course there was, always was and will be. But the advertising, the shows, society, they were overall very wholesome and encouraged people and kids to do the right thing. Yes, that is subjective, too. I just wish more of our current society could agree that letting it all hang out and lack of self-restraint is not the right thing.

 

[griffer]

Wow. This thread is so dated....of all the threads to resurrect.

By now all the porn is on the internets; we are witnesseing the great decline of the smut shop. Be careful what you condemn, though. That basest of human desires is what drove the video market. Period. Sorry folks, but Blockbuster exists because of porn. VHS is the market leading format becasue of porn. Porn is deciding the HD/Blu-Ray issue as we speak. The internet is a viable market because of porn.

Incidentally, has anyone considered the drop in teenage pregnancy as it correlates to internet usage and the growth in PC ownership?

Internet porn may provide an anonamous, safe release for all those hot and bothered teens; a realease free from pregnancy or STDs. Just putting that out there.

***********WARNING: SHIFTING GEARS MID POST**************

This thread may be dated and charged with religious overtones, but the original intent of the thread still remains- the strength of individual choice is and the value we place upon it is the issue.

Choose who you patronize; let the market be the arbiter of taste.
Choose reality over fantasy; moderate the pressure to take the latest 'soma'.

These are all decision that display a strength of character.

They represent a few of many choices an individual can make to spite the herd herd mentality.