A question of ethics

[Fletch]

Even if you do consider pets property, people that will shoot a dog or cat for coming on the property obviously care more for their own property than for others'.

I suspect a lot of these folks are angry gun nuts just itching for something to Defend so they can feel like Real Men.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Regardless of whether you consider pets property, people that will shoot a dog or cat for coming on the property obviously care more about their own property than others'. Too bad you can't be held responsible for mistreating someone else's pet.

Here in Maine you can -- it's considered a felony, and people do time for it.

 

[Fletch]

Well, that's reassuring.
(Sorry for the intra-post edit - Liz quoted my first draft correctly. I axed that part after realizing I didn't know the laws very well.)

 

[jamespowers]

I suspect a lot of these folks are angry gun nuts just itching for something to Defend so they can feel like Real Men.

Let's not make hasty generalizations. [bad]

Regards,

J

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I, for one, do not even own a gun. Nor do I own a dog - or any chickens for that matter. But I do understand Property Rights!

If I owned chickens and and, if I owned a gun. And if a predator (someone's dog or not!) came on my property and destroyed my property, I would use my gun to protect my property.

I would not, however, return the predator to it's "owner". It would now be part of my property and, fertilizer for a tree on my property, in an unmarked hole.

All of this is hypothetical, of course, as I too live in a residential area where we have firearms laws, livestock regulations, and dog ordinances. That is law, and order, in practice. Most of which, are based on Property Rights.

-dixon cannon

 

[Fletch]

Mmmmeh, OK.

I just remember the miserable state my farm-raised schoolteacher was in one day when class started and she told us all that someone had shot their cat. Of course, this was in the flatlands of Iowa in the 70s and we mostly thought of guns as tools, not a way of life.

 

[Haversack]

If I am remembering correctly, (its been over 20 years), Germany has fairly strict laws regarding forest and farmland. One of the laws makes it legal to kill dogs and cats found unaccompanied more than 300 meters from an inhabited building. The concern is not property rights but predator control. The understanding is that such animals are feral and a danger to wildlife and livestock. Feral dogs are also a problem in many parts the Western US. (Most rural westerners know the Three "S-es" in this regard.) The Audubon Society here in the US has recently expressed concerns about the toll that cats are taking on the songbird population, (and been receiving hate-mail for it.) Where do ethics lay in such cases? Because dogs and cats can be pets and brevet family members, do they as a class get immunity from being killed when they become a problem? I think some of this debate reflects the growing divide between town and country seen throughout the western world.

Haversack.

 

[Feraud]

I suspect a lot of these folks are angry gun nuts just itching for something to Defend so they can feel like Real Men.

Amen to that! I encountered a couple of yahoos this past weekend out on Long Island. These pathetic little men would swear they are patriots defending "Rights". In fact, one of 'em actually used the phrase, "don't tread on me." :eusa_doh: :fing28:
As if these fellas from Long Island are having their rights trampled on.

I think some of this debate reflects the growing divide between town and country seen throughout the western world.

Haversack.

Exactly.

 

[Fatdutchman]

I like cats, and have never shot a cat (have never had need to). If an animal is just crossing your property, there is no real need to dispatch it. If it causes problems, however, take it down.

I know lots of people that have an intense unquenchable hatred for cats and will shoot one on sight. I have never really understood this myself.[huh]

 

[Viola]

I love animals and I don't want to ever kill a dog but I'm not going to let a strange loose animal kill my pet or livestock that's on my property, minding its own business.

Why should a wandering pet have more rights than an animal at home? I'm not going to wrassle a strange dog to the ground; its stronger than I am and its teeth are sharper.

Clearly by allowing their pet to wander, the owner has abdicated responsibility. If my chicken flies into your yard, that's a different story, of course. Then its just Fido's Sunday dinner.

-Viola
P.S. My cats are indoor critters; if you have a problem with them, that's breaking and entering. My dogs don't go places unless leashed to somebody.

 

[scotrace]

Forget the pillowy or chapped lips. Forget the handsome fellas. Forget the romantic gesture or elegant turn of phrase.

Smart young ladies pay attention to how a man treats his animals, for a look at how they will treat any future children.

Abusively? Or kindly? Roughly, or with respect?

Property or not, you can tell a lot about a person by the four-legged company he or she keeps.

 

[Fleur De Guerre]

This thread is making me very sad. I wish it would be closed because obviously us soft hearted animal lovers cannot convince those who couldn't give a toss about animal welfare that we are right or vice versa. I have nothing constructive to say becasue everything I would have said has been said very well already.

While we won't ever all agree, there is very much more emotional impact being made on those who are appalled and upset by some of the things described. Whereas those who agree or just don't care can just read, forget and happily go about their day. I am almost in tears after one particular statement and I am so grateful that we have such strict laws against animal cruelty. Including declawing cats.

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Seems to me that resorting to killing as a first (or second, or second-to-last) and not a last resort belies a brain that isn't smart enough to think of a better solution.

A lower level of cognitive capability, if you will.

Just a teeny bit away from the kind of cretins who think that "plinking" varmints is fun sport, etc.

 

[griffer]

Yeah, this forum is about clothing, not legal/philosophical debates!

Look at my new coat->

Yeah, dats right, Diddy's got NOTHIN' on my style!

 

[Flying Scotsman]

Feral dogs are also a problem in many parts the Western US. (Most rural westerners know the Three "S-es" in this regard.)
Haversack.

SSS? Yep...it's what cowardly lawbreakers in the West do when they're not man enough to own up to their actions (usually this is related to shooting wolves, bears, etc.).

As a young man, I had a teacher who instilled in us this thought: "A man can do anything he wants to do, but he must be held accountable for his actions." People practicing SSS aren't men, they're cowards.

Oh, I grew up in "The West", by the way.

 

[Paisley]

Forget the pillowy or chapped lips. Forget the handsome fellas. Forget the romantic gesture or elegant turn of phrase.

Smart young ladies pay attention to how a man treats his animals, for a look at how they will treat any future children.

Abusively? Or kindly? Roughly, or with respect?

Property or not, you can tell a lot about a person by the four-legged company he or she keeps.

Indeed, I find an attitude of noblesse oblige towards animals more endearing than the I'm-the-king-of-the-forest attitude.

Of course, animals who harass people or livestock have to be dealt with, but even wild animals are often captured and relocated so far as it's possible. I grant it's not always possible.

 

[Pilgrim]

"Property or not, you can tell a lot about a person by the four-legged company he or she keeps."

Absolutely! And one can tell a lot about the personality of another person by the way in which they treat animals. Someone who treats animals kindly and considers their welfare is usually showing personality traits worthy of respect.

Earlier in the thread, there was mention of the problem of wandering animals. That also poses an ethical problem for me. The problem with animals let loose to wander is that any problems resulting are generally not the animal's fault, but the owner's fault. Animals simply do what nature tells them to do; unfortunately, it's the animals who end up paying for the poor judgment of their owner.

A dog that wanders onto my lawn - or even one that chases stock - is usually "doing what a dog does". I really don't want to kill or injure the animal (unless it is killing stock or acting threatening to people), but that may be the only option if I can't identify the owner, or convince them to restrain their dog. Cats usually don't create similar problems, but they can be injured by traffic, or become pests by excreting in flower beds or otherwise having an impact on property.

Many of the problems we see and hear about involving animals are primarily due to irresponsible or thoughtless actions on the part of the owner. That is, and will continue to be, a problem.

 

[fortworthgal]

Forget the pillowy or chapped lips. Forget the handsome fellas. Forget the romantic gesture or elegant turn of phrase.

Smart young ladies pay attention to how a man treats his animals, for a look at how they will treat any future children.

Abusively? Or kindly? Roughly, or with respect?

Property or not, you can tell a lot about a person by the four-legged company he or she keeps.

You're exactly right, and to be perfectly honest, one of the things that made me fall in love with my husband was his attitude toward animals. He has the kindest heart of anyone I have ever known.

This thread is making me very sad. I wish it would be closed...

I'm with you. It is very upsetting to me, and I keep telling myself to stay away from this thread!

 

[Dixon Cannon]

"Property or not, you can tell a lot about a person by the four-legged company he or she keeps."

Or, doesn't keep, I might add. I don't even own a dog or a cat. My pet is little tiny frog in a fish bowl. He knows no life outside his gilded cage and he relies on me for dried fly food.

I would suppose there are those that would call me cruel and insensitive for keeping an amphibian in a roomy bowl, even though outside he'd be bird or lizard prey within the hour. Next will there be an outcry over the flys that lost their lives as feed for my frog!!?

I once heard Dennis Miller do a bit about New Yorkers who would step over a homeless person just so they could spit on a person wearing fur! That's where we've come to on this issue of animal rights. A society that spends millions on plastic surgery for their dog or pampered pet food for cats (don't misunderstand; they can spend their private capital on anything they choose!). I've seen airline passengers spend two hundred dollars to take their dog on vacation with them! (That seems ludicrous to me - but again, free choice!)

I've known people who treat their pets like royalty but their friends and family like pariah. I once met a woman who drove three hundred miles to save a dog from being euthanized but treated men as if they were predatory barbarians who needed to be castrated.

People are different in many ways, but many people do use animals in a passive-aggressive manner against fellow humans. (Note the neighbor with the barking dog who refuses to acknowledge that it disturbs his fellow humans, and those who insist that rotweilers and and pit bulls are gentle pets that love children! It is a form of insanity, I tell you!!)

-dixon cannon

 

[Fatdutchman]

"Don't tread on me"...that's my motto!!! "Live free or die" used to be a phrase that stirred the hearts of men...no longer.

There is a VAST difference between what's left of vanishing rural America and, well, the rest of the world (and well there should be!).

I remember a few years ago in California where a mountain lion either killed, or seriously injured a little girl. People began taking money donations for the family of the little girl. Other groups began taking donations for the mountain lion to move it to another area. If I remember correctly, the mountain lion got about four times as much in donations than the family of the little girl....

Pit bulls...ugh, don't get that started!