A question of ethics

[Baron Kurtz]

my opinion only, of course . . .

bk

 

[jamespowers]

my opinion only, of course . . .

bk

Of course. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[Fatdutchman]

Your dog is your property, and no, it doesn't have "rights", but neither is it "right" to be cruel to an animal by inflicting undue pain upon it. I would never say to anyone "don't crop your dog's ears". It is done all the time, and, if done PROPERLY, will not cause cause severe pain or long term problems with the dog. I personally think it's just kind of mean to make the dog go through the discomfort and have the things taped to his ears to hold them up while they "set". I don't care for it, but am not violently opposed to it either....as long as it is done properly under sanitary conditions.

 

[Spitfire]

Your dog is your property, and no, it doesn't have "rights", but neither is it "right" to be cruel to an animal by inflicting undue pain upon it. I would never say to anyone "don't crop your dog's ears". It is done all the time, and, if done PROPERLY, will not cause cause severe pain or long term problems with the dog. I personally think it's just kind of mean to make the dog go through the discomfort and have the things taped to his ears to hold them up while they "set". I don't care for it, but am not violently opposed to it either....as long as it is done properly under sanitary conditions.

As long as it is someones "property" you can do what you like. Is that it?
I don't believe you ever own a cat. The cat might choose to own you.
Just like you do not own a dog or a horse. They are their own - in our custody. Because we - the human race - belives we own everything. And rule over everything.
But to get back to the concept: Its my property - so I can do whatever I please. Does that go for children as well. Or wives?

I think we all have a responsibillity - especially we - the so called human race.
We've got to be human.

 

[griffer]

my opinion only, of course . . .

bk

I respect a strong stand. You have an opinion and you expressed.

That was what the kudos were for.

 

[Viola]

I've never had a puppy, only full-grown dogs. You don't crop/dock a five-year-old dog, it doesn't heal and it doesn't look right and no vet would ever do it.

So the only dog I ever had with cropped ears was a Bouvier we got that way, and his ears were cropped to tiny triangular stubs. He was so fluffy you could barely tell he HAD ears. Pointless surgery, in my view, but his previous owners were all-around jerks anyhow. (not that cropping makes you a jerk, I'm just saying)

I would consider cropping a Great Dane puppy. The other breeds that are cropped, I think look just as good natural.

I probably would avoid the whole issue by getting an adult dog though, through a shelter or breed-specific rescue.

I would not declaw a cat, ever, but I could adopt a declawed cat.

-Viola

 

[Feraud]

I think we all have a responsibillity - especially we - the so called human race.
We've got to be human.

Right. People generally fail to see a bigger picture outside of themselves.
It is all about their rights, their freedoms, their children, their comfort..blah blah.
It is like living in a society full of juvenille delinquents.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I respect a strong stand. You have an opinion and you expressed.

That was what the kudos were for.

If nothing else, i have strong opinions.

I had to write an essay about 4 years ago on transgender and the consequences of "sex-assignment" surgery. A very murky field, indeed. Delving deeply into the rights of parents to make such decisions for their children and the ethics of a doctor performing surgery on his patient (the baby) based upon the - largely uninformed - wishes of someone else (the parents): the hippocratic oath would seem to deny this ability tothe doctor, but that's a point of contention we shouldn't get into here. Is it any surprise to anyone here that parents chose to make the child a boy in more than 3:1 cases? No surprise to me, but i'm deeply cynical about humanity at the best of times . . .

bk

p.s. that's ^^ isn't just rambling. I'm putting these surgery decisions into the same deplorable category as performing the surgeries on dogs. (there are obviously caveats - baby would die otherwise, let's say - that alter this stance).

 

[Fatdutchman]

Because we - the human race - belives we own everything. And rule over everything....
But to get back to the concept: Its my property - so I can do whatever I please. Does that go for children as well. Or wives?

News flash...humans DO rule over everything. It is in our purview to do so.

You're the one that equated children and women with animals. Under most circumstances (though sadly, I can see this changing in the near future..), children and wives are both human beings! :eusa_doh:

 

[Dixon Cannon]

The day that a dog or cat in the neighborhood adapts me, and after a long day of slumber, stops at the ATM for a $20.00 bill so they can pick up a couple cans of caviar and melba toast for me, is the day that I will acknowlege animal rights. By the way Fido, I may need a tetanus shot after that last clawing by Kitty. Will you make an appointment at the Doc for me and pick up my presciption?

-dixon 'dawg' cannon

 

[jamespowers]

The day that a dog or cat in the neighborhood adapts me, and after a long day of slumber, stops at the ATM for a $20.00 bill so they can pick up a couple cans of caviar and melba toast for me, is the day that I will acknowlege animal rights. By the way Fido, I may need a tetanus shot after that last clawing by Kitty. Will you make an appointment at the Doc for me and pick up my presciption?

-dixon 'dawg' cannon

Can you have him run out and get me a hamburger while he is at it?

regards,

J

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Humans in all societies and for thousands of years have altered their own appearances to look, well, to look cool in whatever culture they are/were in. We do it to ourselves -- plastic surgery abounds, implants, body modifications, piercings, etc. There are now some people who are "addicted" to plastic surgery. There are religions that require circumcisions, there are some that require clitorectomies for women, something most of us in western culture consider horrific.

They have done the same to animals, breeding them to be bigger or smaller, more ferocious or gentle, fixing them so they won't breed. And, of course, altering their apperance to look a certain way. As for cropping an animal, I would hope they could do so without hurting the animal. I would hate to have a dog and put it through torture just because it looked "stylish." On the other hand, having them fixed is a good idea so they won't breed.

I don't think I have ever seen a boxer with a long tail, or a great dane with long ears. I did see a doberman one time with normal ears, the animal looked rather cute and not at all the fascist, ferocious creature many envision when they envision a pointy earred doberman.

I had an apple-domed, pointy-eared little chihuahua, he was so cute and bred to be tiny. His health was also delicate and he had only lived half his life when seizures and a brain tumor took him out. I loved him as much as I would a human and would never have wanted him to suffer. Yet, he did. I think his being bred for such a small size contributed to an early death. I would never get a dog that tiny again.

I have a friend who has declawed their cats. She says the cats don't mind, but heaven forbid if they ever get out of the house -- they will not be able to fend for themselves, to hunt or climb or fight for their lives.

I guess the difference for me comes down to this: we can do what we want with our bodies, they have no say in what we do to them. If we do alter them for whatever purpose, it should be done humanely so the animal does not suffer.

karol

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It comes down, i guess, to 'informed consent'. Anything which is done to a creature - other than saving a life or making a life significantly better when consent is impossible (all these caveats, eh? No black and white answers here) - should be based upon informed consent.

Another point. Do we or do we not allow animals even a small amount of intelligence? Enough, let's say, to say they can understand what is happening. If so, we must treat them as we treat other humans. I do not believe that human beings are inherently more important than other animals. We just have more power (on land).

bk

 

[scotrace]

 

[Curt Chiarelli]

Our family has always had Boston Terriers. And although, as Scotrace pointed out, it's common to have their ears cropped, I've never been an advocate of any kind of animal mutilation for the sake of shallow aesthetics. I take 'em as they come, warts and all!

 

[Spitfire]

News flash...humans DO rule over everything. It is in our purview to do so.

You're the one that equated children and women with animals. Under most circumstances (though sadly, I can see this changing in the near future..), children and wives are both human beings! :eusa_doh:

I guesse you missed the after children and wives.
But thanks for the news flash. If we RULE over everything as you claim, doesn't that also mean that we have responsabillity. That we care for others than ourself? And what we might think at any given moment.
" Hey, I am tired of my cat's ripping up my sofa, so now I just rip its claws out!"

 

[griffer]

Intelligence, yes. Animals have it.

Self awareness, cognition, SOULS? [huh]

Oh, and D. Cannon, where do get a couple tins of decent caviar for $20??

Or is that a special galt's gulch $20 piece your uber dog fetches?

 

[fortworthgal]

This is probably the one cause I am extremely passionate about - animal rights and animal cruelty.

I am very, very strongly opposed to any type of surgical procedures, specific breeding, or other modifications, for the purpose of producing an aesthetically pleasing "designer animal." A pet, or any other animal, is a living thing - the same as a human, a baby, or anything else. Anyone who does not believe in animal "rights" because animals cannot shoot one another with missiles as we humans do, or stop at ATMs... well... that's all I'm going to say, as I feel very strongly on this topic and it would be quite easy for me to go into a tirade!

 

[Paisley]

I think form ought to follow function. If there were a strong, practical reason for surgery, I might say yes to it. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the boxers as shown with natural ears. The rounded ears look suit the rounded jaw and head in both shape and size better than the little antelope-horn ears.

 

[jamespowers]

It comes down, i guess, to 'informed consent'. Anything which is done to a creature - other than saving a life or making a life significantly better when consent is impossible (all these caveats, eh? No black and white answers here) - should be based upon informed consent.

Another point. Do we or do we not allow animals even a small amount of intelligence? Enough, let's say, to say they can understand what is happening. If so, we must treat them as we treat other humans. I do not believe that human beings are inherently more important than other animals. We just have more power (on land).

bk

I dunno. You are going far and wide here.
Case in point, my 12 year old docked tail Austrailian Cattle Dog. She had absolutely no informed consent when she suffered a prolapsed uterus, infected tooth and a later found incidence of "breast" cancer. She didn't know the suffering she would go through to make a complete recovery(but I knew my wallet would not recover too quickly from such treatment). Would she have chosen to have that much done or would she have preferred Dr. Kevorkian to come out and knock her off? Well, she had no choice and I made the decision to save her life as a conservator of her trust.
I would likely not treat another human in such a way unless they were incapacitiated. Intelligence, rudimentary at best. They can be trained but they would never do what you told them to do on their own. We are talking real animals here not Mr. Ed and Flipper.
Faced with a choice between my son or my dog, I know which is inherently more important. No one need ask twice. :eusa_doh:
We have the power on land and in the sea if necessary. Not likely a shark is going to nail you in a boat or some such device that keeps you and them in separate quarters. If they had the sentience to declare war on us, it would be over in a few hours.
That being said, we do have personal responsibility for our pets and cruel treatment should be beyond the scope of what we are talking about here. Our responsiblity is to make sure we take care of our own.

Regards,

J