A Message From Aero Leather USA

[HoosierDaddy]

Excellent advice, Atticus. Always a pleasure to read your posts.

Harry.

Absolutely! A Prosecuting attorney..and I would bet..a very good one.
HD

 

[Grayland]

... people's true natures surface. He probably didn't intend on this at first. As things got tighter, he saw opportunity and started dipping his hands in to all of those easily accessible deposits. Seen it in my line of work. Someone gets behind, starts robbing Peter to pay Paul, then everbody else is left holding the bag.
I got nervous as soon as I paid in full. I noticed all of the signs too late, and ignored my own intuition. But, yeah, it's pretty glaringly obvious in hindsight.

Oh, that is what happened. I put my deposit in PayPal; Mark was accepting pay Paul [huh]

 

[pattonfan]

You mean PayPal, right? [huh]

Absomalutely... Or a bookie, ex-wife, landlord, other supplier, secret baby-mama, boat payment, Porsche, etc. Heard 'em all.

 

[cloudylemonade]

Some good news which should be of interest to any customers still trying to claim back a refund, I just had an email from one customer saying "My bank has agreed to refund my payment to Mark. If it helps any of your other customers, I ordered via eBay and paid by PayPall in Feb 2011. I paid in full by Visa debit but I think the refund was processed by my bank (Chase)."

So, the time frame may not be such a hindrance, so please go to your card providers and banks if you've had no luck with paypal and eBay, who I must say on the whole have been beyond useless!

 

[jimmer_5]

Admittedly, I’m still climbing the front side of this information curve, but please let me caution everyone to choose their words carefully. From what I have read, Mark Moye has breached some contracts, but I’m not sure I see criminal conduct. I would urge folks not to use terms like “fraud” and “ponzi scheme” too casually.

So far, with one glaring exception, I see a course of conduct I normally see when retail businesses become insolvent. Contrary to popular belief, such businesses don’t usually go from being profitable to losing money overnight. And there is often a significant time lag before the owner understands that what he thought was a temporary downward cycle is actually pending insolvency. More normally, when things begin turning sour, the owner begins “robbing Peter to pay Paul” and starts stringing along customers and generally doing whatever he can do to stay afloat…in the honest hope that better times are ahead. And, yes, this includes lying to customers and suppliers out of the rational fear that bad information will scare away future business and frighten creditors. For Moye’s business to have taken a couple of years to finally devolve to this point is not, in my opinion, terribly atypical.

The glaring exception? I can’t find a bankruptcy petition. That’s why I went to the effort to look for one.

Honest business people who find themselves in a hopeless financial situation sooner or later come to grips with the fact that they need protection by the Bankruptcy Courts. Dishonest people in the same financial situation know that they can’t file for such protection. The process one must go through in order to gain the protection of Chapter 7 or 11 is specifically designed to uncover fraud. Had Moye found himself two years into a downward spiral, and he couldn’t honestly see his way out of it, I would have expected him to have filed for bankruptcy. But, as I stated earlier, he may have done exactly this, but in a jurisdiction other than South Carolina...so I'm not quite ready to put much weight on even this bit of information.

AF

This is one of the best posts I have seen in this long, depressing thread. It seems to be the best rationalization for the current situation.

My only counterpoint is that there were people who had been waiting too long already that were still being strung along. When it's been a year since the order should have been placed, and he still hasn't sent it to Scotland, the customer is going to figure it out pretty soon. I would agree that he started out honestly hoping he could recover, but I believe that he had to know he was circling the drain for at least the last 6 months.

I just wish I had called or emailed Scotland for an update. On my first order with Mark (which I received), I emailed Amanda about my order to ask some kind of questions about my order. Amanda copied Mark on my email, and Mark was upset that I had gone around him to ask a question. Even Amanda seemed to be wondering why I would contact them directly. Because of this, I didn't contact Scotland about my current order, and just assumed the factory was swamped as per usual.

As to why I chose to use Aero USA in the first place, it was all about saving money. At the time it was a little cheaper to go through Aero USA because Mark would pay the import duties, and shipping from England. eBay was also doing a "cashback" program, and it amounted to about 15% savings, and Aero Leather USA was eligible as it was an eBay store. And don't forget, I had previously ordered a jacket through Mark, and received it in about 6-7 months.

 

[Tony B]

paypal and ebay being useless.......it's just one shocking revelation after another isn't it.

The bank/card issuer is the best bet for most things,the small print in the agreements that come with the card when you get it can be of great interest in these circumstances although you will pobably have to remind the bank you got them through of their contractual responsibilities as the arrogant little oiks in the branches generally don't have a clue about such things, if you get trouble ask the for the branch manager and ask him/her if you are going to need to go over his head to get the bank to honour the obligations they make in their agreement/contract and you will normally get a result. They will have no grace about it but as long as you get your money back who cares.

They like to point out your responsibilities as a user of their products but contractual small print can quite often give you a lot of cover that they are not normally aware of so a savvy customer can stitch them up with there own contracts which the people at branch level are not aware of.

Those bits of paper you signed when getting your credit/debit card are binding contracts and work both ways, read the small print and remember the bits that work in your favour and quote them if you need to. If nothing else it will make them realise thay are dealing with someone pedantic enough to read the small print and who is likely to be more trouble than they are worth and pay you off rather than risk being reported to the official bodies for not honouring legal obligations. It works.

 

[cloudylemonade]

I just wish I had called or emailed Scotland for an update. On my first order with Mark (which I received), I emailed Amanda about my order to ask some kind of questions about my order. Amanda copied Mark on my email, and Mark was upset that I had gone around him to ask a question. Even Amanda seemed to be wondering why I would contact them directly. Because of this, I didn't contact Scotland about my current order, and just assumed the factory was swamped as per usual.

The reason Amanda, and I previously assumed Mark, would have discouraged coming to us on an order placed with him is because it can become confusing for us to be involved in his orders, but the main reason is that the orders that we send to him do not have any customers names attached to them. We would get a list of say 5 jackets ordered from Mark, and that's all we knew. We knew they were often made according to spec set by an individual customer, but not who that customer was.

 

[jimmer_5]

The reason Amanda, and I previously assumed Mark, would have discouraged coming to us on an order placed with him is because it can become confusing for us to be involved in his orders, but the main reason is that the orders that we send to him do not have any customers names attached to them. We would get a list of say 5 jackets ordered from Mark, and that's all we knew. We knew they were often made according to spec set by an individual customer, but not who that customer was.

Holly - I am not faulting Amanda at all - I only brought her up to show that both parties felt it best that I deal exclusively through Mark. I think her response was absolutely correct.

I am simply pointing out my reasoning for nver contacting you at Aero Scotland to check up on my outstanding order. Mark had been upset with me for going over his head on my previous order, so I never contacted the factory with my current order. I just wish I had decided to stop caring about his feelings. I should have checked up on my order, and got burned for it. I'm going to give my bank a call today and try to get them to do a chargeback for me. Paypal told me it would take 10 days to decide the case, but I'm not holding out much hope on that front.

 

[cloudylemonade]

Oh I understand, just explaining why Amanda might have suggested to any customer that they only deal with us or Mark, it was purely to save confusion.

Keep us posted on paypal's decision, and if they don't help you, please do go to your bank, they are be far the most helpful in most cases so far.

 

[ButteMT61]

Holly - I am not faulting Amanda at all - I only brought her up to show that both parties felt it best that I deal exclusively through Mark. I think her response was absolutely correct.I am simply pointing out my reasoning for nver contacting you at Aero Scotland to check up on my outstanding order. Mark had been upset with me for going over his head on my previous order, so I never contacted the factory with my current order. I just wish I had decided to stop caring about his feelings. I should have checked up on my order, and got burned for it. I'm going to give my bank a call today and try to get them to do a chargeback for me. Paypal told me it would take 10 days to decide the case, but I'm not holding out much hope on that front.

That might explain my "luck". Once I placed the order for the 50's HBD, I had a large number of emails with Mark. At that point, I think I had two previous Aeros, and both were different (tagged) sizes. I was freaking out over the size for two reasons - one, I lost weight, two, I read and re-read every thread here on the process. I politely asked Mark if it would be OK to bring Amanda into the email chain as I considered her "the expert" and Mark the seller. He agreed, as long as I didn't bug her to death - fair request I thought. So, maybe my luck was in having Amanda on the email chain?

One other point (question). Was it Mark or his wife that started this thread? If it was indeed Mark, building on AF's post, I'd think his intentions (I know, the road to hell...) were to make good, and it fell apart? Dunno, in spite of the **** hitting the fan, I'd like to think that was the plan, however it's obvious that time has passed.

 

[Grayland]

Holly - I am not faulting Amanda at all - I only brought her up to show that both parties felt it best that I deal exclusively through Mark. I think her response was absolutely correct.

I am simply pointing out my reasoning for nver contacting you at Aero Scotland to check up on my outstanding order. Mark had been upset with me for going over his head on my previous order, so I never contacted the factory with my current order. I just wish I had decided to stop caring about his feelings. I should have checked up on my order, and got burned for it. I'm going to give my bank a call today and try to get them to do a chargeback for me. Paypal told me it would take 10 days to decide the case, but I'm not holding out much hope on that front.

You said PayPal takes 10 days to decide the case. I also opened a PayPal case about 3 days ago and it is pending. Do you think Mark will even respond to PayPal? The bad part about PayPal (at least as far as I know) is that deposits are exluded in the fine print. They won't refund deposits as far as I know, although you may have paid in full.

 

[oneterrifichog]

Holly:

Do you have a handle on how many people are involved in this problem?

 

[Tony B]

THAT expains why Butte got his jacket when others didn't, Scotland were made aware of the order so there was no way not to continue with the order without the alarm bells going off.

 

[cloudylemonade]

THAT expains why Butte got his jacket when others didn't, Scotland were made aware of the order so there was no way not to continue with the order without the alarm bells going off.

To be honest, sometimes this wouldn't guarantee things, as I explained before, when actual formal orders come in, there is no name attached to them. There has been various cases of someone asking Amanda for advice, and the orders still not being placed. She wouldn't know which order was which, or if the customer ever did follow through and place their order with Mark.

Holly:

Do you have a handle on how many people are involved in this problem?

We're currently sitting at around 80 customers, some with multiple jackets. Every day there are new customers coming forward having only just realised what has happened.

Holly

 

[oneterrifichog]

To be honest, sometimes this wouldn't guarantee things, as I explained before, when actual formal orders come in, there is no name attached to them. There has been various cases of someone asking Amanda for advice, and the orders still not being placed. She wouldn't know which order was which, or if the customer ever did follow through and place their order with Mark.



We're currently sitting at around 80 customers, some with multiple jackets. Every day there are new customers coming forward having only just realised what has happened.

Holly

This is horrible. It is bad for the victims, Aero and quite frankly for all of the collectors who take pride in thinking that we are dealing with good people. I have never been burned on Ebay and I have collected a number of different items over the years including my share of Aero jackets. I have enjoyed wearing and enjoyed selling all of them. I do understand how one can get caught in things beyond their control and loose all sight of the realities of good business sense but this one really blows me away.

Wilbur

 

[Atticus Finch]

Not to stray too far from the subject, but Aero USA's announcement has generated almost no interest over on my home forum (VLJ). Only twelve posts since March 22nd. Odd. Maybe everyone over there deals exclusively with Aero UK or with Goodwear?

AF

 

[Grayland]

Not to stray too far from the subject, but Aero USA's announcement has generated almost no interest over on my home forum (VLJ). Only twelve posts since March 22nd. Odd. Maybe everyone over there deals exclusively with Aero UK or with Goodwear?

AF

I noticed that as well. I'm not sure I've even posted there, but I do peruse the site and thought there would be more discussion.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Not to stray too far from the subject, but Aero USA's announcement has generated almost no interest over on my home forum (VLJ). Only twelve posts since March 22nd. Odd. Maybe everyone over there deals exclusively with Aero UK or with Goodwear?

AF

I think so...plus not as many utility jacket fans on the VLJ..it seems. Plus Mark quit handling Aero A2s,etc a few years ago. I did notice that Mark Moye deleted his VLJ membership a few days ago.
HD

 

[xt40]

I noticed that as well. I'm not sure I've even posted there, but I do peruse the site and thought there would be more discussion.

The vlj site has gone very quiet in recent times

 

[ButteMT61]

The vlj site has gone very quiet in recent times

With so many cross-posters, I'm not surprised. How many folks want to post in two places about the same thing. FWIW, on COW, they pointed here too - likely due to less interest and to cut down on drama there.Seems smart to keep it in one place.