A Message From Aero Leather USA

[jlanderson]

I suspect that, as an academic lawyer who focuses on internet law, Ed might know what he's talking about. Challenge at your own peril! I await case histories

bk

Well, must be different then for print media, because this is what our libel lawyer drills into us on a regular basis year after year after year.

 

[Edward]

Completely different from print media. Long story short, whereas a newspaper editor has the chance to see all material, such as letters to the editor, before it goes to print, an online host isn't even aware of it until after their system has been used to make it available online. Globally, there is a broad consensus that online intermediaries should therefore not face the print strict liability standard, being more akin to the newsagent that sells the paper on rather than the editor of said paper. In the US, the Communications Decency Act took this to the extreme I mention above (in the context of encouraging ISPs to actively edit their servers for pornography without fear of being considered to have assumed an editorial role, and so strict liability for defamations thus made available). While the criminal offences introduce by the CDA were thrown out as in violation of the First Amendment (see Supreme Court judgment in ACLU v Reno 1997), the Section 230 immunity remains in place (see Zeran v AOL and subsequent cases), albeit that it has had completely the opposite effect of that intended by Congress.

 

[Edward]

I suspect that, as an academic lawyer who focuses on internet law, Ed might know what he's talking about. Challenge at your own peril! I await case histories

bk

heh. Yeah, this is actually bang on one of my specialisms, so.

 

[scotrace]

Lol, what planet are you on?

As a longtime reader of Mr Finch's posts, I would say he is on Planet I Know What I am Talking About.

We are watching this thread very closely. Stay on topic, keep the vitriol to a minimum, or down it goes.We are trying to provide space for everyone to get up-to-the-minute information regarding this mess.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

WOW!! Thanks! Not only is the site a good place to learn about leather jackets, etc. but also the nuances of print versus online defamation law! Thanks!!

Yes, always hedge - "appears to be", "it seems/looks like" "from the information here". Never use definite phrases.

None of that helps you in the UK of course. Harsh, harsh, defamation law.

bk

 

[Atticus Finch]

Lol, what planet are you on? Aside from a chance to toot your own horn, I don't understand why you'd even make such an irrelevant condescending post. What have you seen? What investigation has taken place that we know of yet? The whole reason people are getting the police involved with this is because they believe that someone has acted criminally and they want the authorities to look into it. Should we call the Columbia police and say "I believe someone has been a poopie-head but I won't say that they acted criminally because I wouldn't want to tarnish their good name?"

I was one of the last people here to believe in Mark. I even encouraged people not to use terms like "fraud" in a past post. That was before certain things transpired. You're not involved with this fiasco directly nor indirectly, so you lack details of what's going on. Hence I don't care what your unsolicited unpaid advice is.

What certain things? What details do I lack? What has transpired? Share the details that you know. Tell us what makes you call this guy a criminal. You made the assertion that Mark Moye has violated some statute. It isn't up to me, Mark Moye or anyone else to prove you wrong. It is up to you to prove your assertion true. If Mark Moye is charged with a crime, that is exactly how his trial will work. I'm guessing that you understand that.

You ask what I've seen. That is exactly my point. I've seen nothing that would convict anyone of a crime. I've seen only speculation and emotion here. You acknowledge that there has been no investigation (that we know of), yet you jump to the conclusion that this guy is a criminal...and then you post that opinion on a public forum?

If you want to call the Columbia Police, The South Carolina Bureau of Investigation or the FBI and report this as a crime, that's fine. I think you should. You can give them your real name and share your knowledge of this case with the assigned investigator. Maybe one day you'll even get to testify in a court. But believe this: The police aren't going to charge Moye with a crime based on your or anyone else's anonymous accusations posted on this forum. So there's simply nothing to be gained by calling Moye a criminal here.

AF

 

[seabass]

:eusa_doh:

To be honest, there have been quite a few threads on this board (and others, like VLJ I think i recall) where people talked about very long wait times. I thought it a bit sketchy at the time, to be honest, but didn't think much about it as I only buy vintage. if I recall correctly (and I may be just looking through some murky aether) there was quite a kerfuffle regarding people complaining about Aero wait times - threads closed, told to contact Aero USA or Aero direct - possible well-meaning attempts to protect the Aero name by bartenders here. Who knows, I may not be remembering correctly. [EDIT] It's probable that all the threads weree simply merged into the one i link to at the bottom of this post.

It stuns me that the lid was not blown earlier. This has been going on for years and apparently no-one contacted Aero proper direct and found that their order had not been passed along by "Aero" USA. [huh] Here's a thread from 2010 (one of the few remaining talking about this issue. I recall many, many more started threads), entitiled Aero 9 months + wait, is this common? There is some rather pertinent discussion in that thread, given what we now know.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...onths-wait-is-this-common&highlight=aero+wait



[EDIT] People may also be interested in this thread - Customer experiences with Aero Leather - when trying to get the historical perspective on FLoungers discussions around this topic. Though i think it does talk about wait times from both Aero proper and "Aero" USA, it's probably worth a glance:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?37930-Customer-experiences-with-Aero-Leather

Hello I started that thread.http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...onths-wait-is-this-common&highlight=aero+wait
I was noticing some folks here did recieve there jackets in shorter times while i was waiting for my jacket. so that is why i started that thread..
i did feel there was something unusual in my treatment & dealings with Mark & i did feel i was not going to get any thing until i stated in a few emails directly to Mark. Why do some frequent poster's get there jackets fast & im left hanging.. well i got my jacket about another month after that. May be he saw my thread?
Oh well it fit too wide but i was pissed & left it alone. i did not want to deal with him & felt returning would be torture...
actually in a non-Aero thread i made a comment about the great fit of another makers jacket & refered to my Aero's Fit was like a paper sack. One of the frequent posters ,Made a weird comment that i did not Get...i left that alone due the memory of how i felt with my treatment & lousy service from mark. I felt that comment came from someone who did not have to wait or recieved great service from Mark...
Any way I am very sorry that a lot of folks are out of $$$ & no jackets. My feelings are with you guys. Take care

Bartenders sorry if im off topic.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I know, it did sound a little stuffy.

Yeah...after waiting a few hours and rereading my post, I have to say it is more than a little stuffy. It is exactly as Jack Burton says, its condesending. Even though I wouldn't know Mark Moye if he walked in and bit me, I hate to see him or anyone called out before we know the facts. Still, the tone of my post was off base and I apologize to Jack Burton and the Forum for that.

AF

 

[bretron]

Just hope everyone gets their money back!!! Think GW and ELC are the only winners in this mess

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I realise it's no help to anyone, but I'm finding this whole episode absolutely fascinating as a case study. Thinking about it (hindsight, of course), I can see that this field of interest was ripe for this kind of scam (if indeed it was a scam, as it appears). Lots and lots of money put down in deposit for a highly desired product that is reasonably expected to take at least 3 months to deliver, is not produced by the "seller" (reseller), and whose production has inherent, multitudinous, and unpredictable delays. That amount of money floating around in the resellers account (especially the deposit money) must be extremely tempting …

To a smaller extent my own field of interest (vintage leather jackets and clothing in general) have similar openings for scams. But, they usually centre around the perceived/advertised age of a garment and the actual age of the garment. And the numbers (prices) involved are vastly smaller than what we're talking about here.

bk

 

[derleicaman]

We are watching this thread very closely. Stay on topic, keep the vitriol to a minimum, or down it goes.We are trying to provide space for everyone to get up-to-the-minute information regarding this mess.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for keeping this thread up and open. It is the only source of information I have regarding this sordid mess, as Mark has not emailed me since early last week, asking how I would like to get my refund and promising it in a few days. Needless to say that has not happened and I have filed a claim with ebay/paypal. By luck, I was within the 45 day limit to file a claim, so I am confident I will get my money back in time. Others are not so fortunate. I have gotten a few emails from Holly at Aero Scotland, but other than that, I am relying on this thread for up to date info. I'm sure there are a number of folks just like me and this thread is our lifeline. Otherwise, I would be just like a mushroom; kept in the dark and fed s**t!

 

[feltfan]

Executive Summary:

I ordered a Hercules through Aero USA's eBay listing in the first week of January, 2010.
I received a jacket at six months that was the wrong size, color, and lining.
I received a second jacket after another six month that was still too small and had
a significant manufacturing error (short shoulder). A year passed with no jacket and
only sporadic responses to calls and email messages from Mark Moye. At the end of the
year I called Amanda in Scotland. Four and a half months after that, I have a jacket.

My conclusions (which are my opinion only) are:

• If I had involved Amanda even a week later, I would have nothing. Thank you, Amanda.
• Mark is personable enough, but he is not a clear communicator or detail oriented.
• I never felt I was anyone's priority. If it were my business and someone had waited
  a year for a freakin' article of clothing, I would not have been as
  nonchalant as Mark. You can argue that it wasn't Amanda's/Aero Scotland's
  problem (though I would disagree) but I still should have had my jacket in 4 weeks, not
  4 months after alerting Amanda. Both parties should have been mortified.
• There is no way that any customer could tell that Aero Scotland and Aero USA were
  separate entities. It was encumbent on Aero Scotland to
  keep a close eye on Aero USA and any other approach is naive and irresponsible at best.
• Note that Amanda knew that I and at least one other customer who is on Fedora Lounge
  (and who knows how many others) had been waiting two years or more, and she knew it four
  months before Aero USA and Aero Scotland severed ties.

I don't see Aero Scotland as a victim of Aero USA and I don't see Mark as a
victim of Aero Scotland. i think poor business practice on both sides of the pond
(clearly significantly poorer at Aero USA) are to blame. Much as I like the jacket
I now own, I am very sorry I didn't just go to Johnson Leathers and get a custom jacket
made to measure.


The Long Version

The FL high profile theory

The flaw in the theory that Mark gave better service to those who
post a lot on The Fedora Lounge is that he may not know who posts
a lot and he may not know which of his customers' names correspond
to which FL screen name. I don't know that he knew my screen names, though
he could have figured it out by the time the brown jacket was posted.
That was well over a year ago. So I don't that this had any bearing on my case.
In any event, Aero Scotland has noted that we are a statistically
insignificant portion of those owed money or jacket, so it'll be hard to prove.
It should be pointed out that I have been posting here longer than
HoosierDaddy or ButteMT61 or probably most people who are perceived to have
been treated better than others. Frankly, given Mark's lack of attention
to detail, I suspect rankings like this would not be his style. Judge for yourself.

I believe I have a jacket because I involved Amanda early enough. I thank the
Fedora Lounge for making me aware that there was an Amanda to contact and I thank
Amanda for her intervention.

Why did my Jacket take so long?

In his eBay ad, Mark stated,

"Aero Leather jackets are made-to-order and hand crafted for the individual customer.
We do not pre-make them then alter to fit the customer nor do we have them in-stock
and ready to ship on a moment's notice."

In his eBay listing, Mark noted:

*Completion time on any made-to-order Aero is 3 to 6 months, excluding holidays,
factory closings or reasons beyond our control.*

I was promised a three month turn around. At the beginning of January, 2010.
My first jacket arrived six months later. I ordered a black jacket with a black
cotton lining in size 50 (sparing you details). This is what arrived:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?49430-New-Aero-Hercules-is-here!

Mark told me he mixed up two orders. I sent it back and he sold it to Parkpiper on eBay.
Apparently he didn't even look at the jacket or he might have noticed it wasn't black...

My next jacket took around another 6 months to arrive. It was too small and too short.
I felt I was still having a hard time getting Mark to use the measurements I sent him,
including the fact that I wear a size 50 jacket.
Also, one shoulder was noticeably narrower than the other. This latter detail has to
have been the fault of the manufacturer. The difference between the shoulders measured
to 1/2 inch. This also made one sleeve shorter than the other.

When I sent it back, Mark gave me this response:

"...rather than nit pic over the first ship refund of $44 I simply sent $50 to cover
any PPal fees that might deduct and short you. Return ship costs are always the responsibility
of the customer but as the first jacket was way off size-wise I happily offered to reimburse you.
Now the second jacket isn't right either. The third jacket will
require yet another $125-150.00 out of pocket in ship charges and duties (as did #2)--
I cannot keep covering everything. These customized model Aeros (aka "Frankenjackets")
are at best difficult to resell. Most customers want standard details and appointments."

Now remember that the eBay listing stated,

"Aero Leather jackets are made-to-order and hand crafted for the individual customer.
We do not pre-make them then alter to fit the customer nor do we have them in-stock and
ready to ship on a moment's notice."

"If there is a sizing issue we will happily remake you another jacket..."

For those examining Aero USA to figure out what went wrong, a short tangent.
Note the business model here. If it costs Mark/Aero USA $125-$150 each time he receives a
jacket (more if he accepts domestic shipping charges because it's his mistake, as he did
the first time with me), there is an extremely strong disincentive to return jackets for modification.
At one point Mark told me that he is allowed to order a fixed number of jackets a month (which
I think he said was 12). Holly has disputed this claim, but if true it would be another
disincentive to serve those whose jackets did not fit. Why use one of the twelve jackets
for that month to do something that would not make money? We may never know the truth/agreement here.

So I waited again. A year. I contacted Mark a few times that year. Often he did not
reply. Sometimes he gave a non-committal response. Wondering why I was so patient? I just had other stuff
going on and lost focus. Plus I was trying to be nice and not pressure Mark. Ha.
In October of 2011 Mark replied with this message: "Not ready yet". Well that explains it.
Finally, in November of 2011, I called Amanda in Scotland.

I have 18 email messages from Amanda, just to determine my measurements/jacket size.
I sent all measurements requested and photographs of myself. A lot of these
messages were, as you'd imagine, repeating the same thing over and over. Again,
a lack of attention to details and record keeping, much like Aero USA. For example,
a month into exchanging email with Amanda she wrote the following response:

"Can you remind me what order this is?
Were you confirming everything?
Can you send through an email with what jacket its for
And all your sizes etc,"

I also had a number of problems sending mail to Aero Scotland. Repeated bounced mail.

As I have stated above, I appreciate Amanda's involvement. Her efforts are the
only reason I am not simply holding an IOU. However, I think my experience
indicates a lack of record keeping equal to the increased sales of recent years.
I also think that Aero Scotland could have moved faster than 4 months for my
jacket and that a big red flag should have been raised when more than one customer
reports waiting 2 years for a jacket from Aero USA.

What is the relationship between Aero USA and Aero Scotland?

In the Aero USA eBay store is the statement, "My name is Mark Moye and I am the factory
representative here in the U.S.A. for Aero Leather Clothing Co., Galashiels, Scotland."
Straight up, in public, he is stating that he represents Aero Scotland.
All of Aero USA's auctions on eBay and the eBay store statements were publically readable
for years and years.

The only reason we find the question of the relationship between Aero USA and Aero Scotland
interesting is because we want to determine the responsibility Aero Scotland has toward
those who have lost out now that Aero USA has closed. I don't see this question as easy
to answer. And it looks to me, in my opinion, as though poor business practices on both
sides of the pond contributed to the state we're in.

My opinion, except where quoting. HTH.

 

[rippsnorter]

Just want to say thank you very much for your explanation and post feltfan.

It helps me to better understand what's happening as I'm waiting for email replies for my $850 fully paid for jacket of almost a year that I've not received. Having such a detailed account from someone else is a relief in a way.

 

[jlanderson]

Yeah...after waiting a few hours and rereading my post, I have to say it is more than a little stuffy. It is exactly as Jack Burton says, its condesending. Even though I wouldn't know Mark Moye if he walked in and bit me, I hate to see him or anyone called out before we know the facts. Still, the tone of my post was off base and I apologize to Jack Burton and the Forum for that.

AF

But in an informed, please-heed-my-advice-and-tread-carefully sort of way. Which was most appreciated.

 

[cloudylemonade]

I will tell the complete story soon. But for now let me just say that after over two years of
waiting, my Hercules arrived today. On 3/28 I received email from Mark Moye that said, in part,
"Hope all is ok with the fit and everything in general. Don't know if you're aware but I was forced
to close my business last week and have severed all ties and connections with the Aero factory in Scotland."
His original underline. The fit and everything is, in fact, ok. I have been sweating with every post here.

Mark Moye was FORCED out of business if you accept that being unable to pay outstanding well overdue bill and being told he wouldn't get any more deliveries until he did constitutes "being FORCED out of business" If we were in the same position with any of our tanneries, I’d go to the bank immediately, if they refused to help and we had to close, the only folk I'd blame was (1) ourselves for getting into the mess in the first time, (2) the banks for not helping, and (3) most of all Gordon Brown for wrecking The UK economy.....NOT the folk we owed the money too, they are the victims, NOT the cause.

 

[cloudylemonade]

The flaw in the theory that Mark gave better service to those who
post a lot on The Fedora Lounge is that he may not know who posts
a lot and he may not know which of his customers' names correspond
to which FL screen name.

I'd wager he knew enough "posting" names to keep his reputation in tip top shape.

I was promised a three month turn around. At the beginning of January, 2010.
My first jacket arrived six months later. I ordered a black jacket with a black
cotton lining in size 50 (sparing you details).

Mark told me he mixed up two orders. I sent it back and he sold it to Parkpiper on eBay.
Apparently he didn't even look at the jacket or he might have noticed it wasn't black...

There are several more cases like this which have come to our attention, it would appear that certain customers... I'm assuming those whose orders were never actually placed with the factory were sent "any jacket" probably one from Mark's small inventory to tide them over, or 'keep them quiet for a while'. You are not the only one sent a jacket wildly off spec .

My next jacket took around another 6 months to arrive. It was too small and too short.
I felt I was still having a hard time getting Mark to use the measurements I sent him,
including the fact that I wear a size 50 jacket.
Also, one shoulder was noticeably narrower than the other. This latter detail has to
have been the fault of the manufacturer. The difference between the shoulders measured
to 1/2 inch. This also made one sleeve shorter than the other.

Even Aero get the odd jacket slightly out on rare occasions. This is usually due to the fact that the thicker the hide the harder it is to fold over at the seams, ditto the thinner the hide the easier to fold over. It's hard to judge ever tiny area in a skin, on rare occasions one panel, or one sleeve area is thicker that the opposite side which can end up giving a slightly different measurement, anyone owning a heavy vintage horsehide jacket and a tape measure will no doubt confirm. We take a lot of care to avoid this but sometimes it's just impossible to see until the garment is tried on. We have nobody over a 44" working in the factory so we can't check every jacket on a human body.

When I sent it back, Mark gave me this response:

"...rather than nit pic over the first ship refund of $44 I simply sent $50 to cover
any PPal fees that might deduct and short you. Return ship costs are always the responsibility
of the customer but as the first jacket was way off size-wise I happily offered to reimburse you.
Now the second jacket isn't right either. The third jacket will
require yet another $125-150.00 out of pocket in ship charges and duties (as did #2)--
I cannot keep covering everything. These customized model Aeros (aka "Frankenjackets")
are at best difficult to resell. Most customers want standard details and appointments."

Now remember that the eBay listing stated,

"Aero Leather jackets are made-to-order and hand crafted for the individual customer.
We do not pre-make them then alter to fit the customer nor do we have them in-stock and
ready to ship on a moment's notice."

"If there is a sizing issue we will happily remake you another jacket..."

We don't interfere with how any of our stockists run their business, they buy from us and resell the goods. The terms and service they offer is their business and theirs alone. Unless we become aware of any stockists business practices are starting to reflect on our business. We know other Aero stockists read and/or post on this forum, I'm 100% confident they could confirm this response.

For those examining Aero USA to figure out what went wrong, a short tangent.
Note the business model here. If it costs Mark/Aero USA $125-$150 each time he receives a
jacket (more if he accepts domestic shipping charges because it's his mistake, as he did
the first time with me),

I'd bet heavily that that 'your' first jacket was nothing to do with you but was someone else's return or a stock jacket sent to you to but more time, so no shipping loss there.

there is an extremely strong disincentive to return jackets for modification.
At one point Mark told me that he is allowed to order a fixed number of jackets a month (which
I think he said was 12). Holly has disputed this claim, but if true it would be another
disincentive to serve those whose jackets did not fit. Why use one of the twelve jackets
for that month to do something that would not make money? We may never know the truth/agreement here.

I hope I've shown our honesty and how open we are in our response to his whole sorry mess, as I pointed out, this 'limited edition' stance is a classic business ploy to get more work.

So I waited again. A year. I contacted Mark a few times that year. Often he did not
reply. Sometimes he gave a non-committal response. Wondering why I was so patient? I just had other stuff
going on and lost focus. Plus I was trying to be nice and not pressure Mark. Ha.
In October of 2011 Mark replied with this message: "Not ready yet". Well that explains it.
Finally, in November of 2011, I called Amanda in Scotland.

I have 18 email messages from Amanda, just to determine my measurements/jacket size.
I sent all measurements requested and photographs of myself.

She'd want to be sure that you got the jacket you wanted, not trusting what info, if any, Mark had passed on, especially considering your experiences with Aero USA up to that point.

A lot of these messages were, as you'd imagine, repeating the same thing over and over. Again,
a lack of attention to details and record keeping, much like Aero USA. For example,
a month into exchanging email with Amanda she wrote the following response:

"Can you remind me what order this is?
Were you confirming everything?
Can you send through an email with what jacket its for
And all your sizes etc,"

In all fairness to Amanda, this was in the immediate run up to Christmas when she was swamped with work. Of the 22 staff at Aero 19 work on the product in one way or another, cutting, making linings or sewing the jacket while only 3 at that point deal with administration, we are a very product minded company without layers of bureaucracy, at peak times these folk get stretched to the limit.

I also had a number of problems sending mail to Aero Scotland. Repeated bounced mail.

We did have an email glitch that took a week or two before we spotted it.

As I have stated above, I appreciate Amanda's involvement. Her efforts are the
only reason I am not simply holding an IOU. However, I think my experience
indicates a lack of record keeping equal to the increased sales of recent years.

We never have the names or contact details for the person who will actually be wearing a jacket when an order comes in from one of our stockists, this makes finding a single jacket in a huge pile of trade orders quite difficult.

I also think that Aero Scotland could have moved faster than 4 months for my
jacket and that a big red flag should have been raised when more than one customer
reports waiting 2 years for a jacket from Aero USA.

I'm assuming that Mark put this down to a misplaced order as he'd done when we'd stumbled across any in the past.

What is the relationship between Aero USA and Aero Scotland?

In the Aero USA eBay store is the statement, "My name is Mark Moye and I am the factory
representative here in the U.S.A. for Aero Leather Clothing Co., Galashiels, Scotland."
Straight up, in public, he is stating that he represents Aero Scotland.
All of Aero USA's auctions on eBay and the eBay store statements were publically readable
for years and years.

Sorry to bang on the same drum, but Mark's post that started this thread makes it 100% clear what the relationship was, why would he not try to pass the blame onto Aero Scotland if he thought there was the slightest chance he could??

The only 'poor business practice' I feel we can own up to is not checking our trade customers websites on a regular basis but we've got over 70 trade accounts, many other stockists in Europe and Japan we've never even heard of... shops that buy small numbers from some of our major trade customers and resell in their own shop. It would be impossible to check them all and as long as the bills get paid on time there didn't appear to be any reason to check these site.

Incidentally Real McCoys and RealMcCoys NZ are two separate firms, I wonder if they've ever has similar problems?

The only reason we find the question of the relationship between Aero USA and Aero Scotland
interesting is because we want to determine the responsibility Aero Scotland has toward
those who have lost out now that Aero USA has closed. I don't see this question as easy
to answer. And it looks to me, in my opinion, as though poor business practices on both
sides of the pond contributed to the state we're in.

Legally we have no responsibility whatsoever, 100% confirmed by leading NYC Attorney who specialises in this kind of action. However, we are doing everything in our power to sort out the mess Mark Moye left behind, we do not want our good name stained by a stockists actions.

Overall, I'm pleased to hear you've got the jacket you wanted in the end, I'm just sorry it arrived so late and you've had so much trouble. A 20% discount on your next (if any) purchase would seem to be the least we can offer by way of an appology for something that nobody should have gone through.

Holly

 

[hpalapdog]

Mark Moye was FORCED out of business if you accept that being unable to pay outstanding well overdue bill and being told he wouldn't get any more deliveries until he did constitutes "being FORCED out of business" If we were in the same position with any of our tanneries, I’d go to the bank immediately, if they refused to help and we had to close, the only folk I'd blame was (1) ourselves for getting into the mess in the first time, (2) the banks for not helping, and (3) most of all Gordon Brown for wrecking The UK economy.....NOT the folk we owed the money too, they are the victims, NOT the cause.

Hi Ken. I recognize your writing style !

 

[cloudylemonade]

Hi Ken. I recognize your writing style !

Haha, bits were passed on from my dad for me to post, as I'm on holiday and wasn't aware of this message til he called me!

 

[zaman fu]

In response to all of the threads regarding whether Moye committed a crime, I think he did. Any money he collected from customers was for purposes of placing orders for them with Aero Scotland, and he should have set aside whatever money he would need for these orders. Using that money before he placed the orders and paid Aero Scotland was theft, plain and simple. Customers gave him their money so that he could order jackets for them, and he did otherwise. Why is there even debate about this?

 

[feltfan]

Mark Moye was FORCED out of business if you accept that being unable to pay outstanding well overdue bill and being told he wouldn't get any more deliveries until he did constitutes "being FORCED out of business"

Yes, of course. This was not meant as a criticism or comment on Aero Scotland. It was meant to provide a bit of an insight
into Mark Moye, in the spirit of putting together the pieces.