A Message From Aero Leather USA

[Baron Kurtz]

There some gems in there, the evidence was there but for some reason people ignored it. I can understand if he just started the scheme a couple months ago but to drag on a jacket build for 2+ years is just unreal:

I thought you might like it! This comment really stuck out.

Posted by JLStorm, 09/09/2010

"He put himself in the middle, he is not part of Aero, he is a completely separate distributor affiliated with Aero as a reseller. He is basically the same as a beer distributor, that is affiliated with the beer company, but simply distributes to the public. The difference in this case is that the public can go directly to the manufacturer. … I wouldn't go around feeling sorry for him though. He chose to leverage his company as a reseller for a business that specializes in custom orders and dealing direct with the end user."

So, the fact that this was not Aero, but an unrelated affiliate/distributor was well known, and so Aero's current stance - that they are not responsible and could not have known what was going on - is perfectly reasonable, unlike what has been suggested earlier in this thread.

That thread also brings up an interesting suggestion. It seems that people thought Aero USA basically wasn't making any money.

Posted by TheSnark, 12/09/2010

"If you check Mark's prices on his website, you'll find that he charges the same as the factory (allowing for currency exchange, of course)"

Like this chap was somehow in business for the good of the customers. A company of almost mythical proportions around here … [huh]

 

[Mojo1975]

Here's the thing folks... When we (Insurrection) place an order with Aero, whether it's a custom order or an off-the-rack order, we get a production time from Amanda (usually 16 to 20 weeks), given what is currently in the queue. We quote our customer or ourselves that current production time. Usually jackets show up within the 16 weeks, period. The few times that jackets have reached the 16 weeks and not arrived, I put either a call or email into Amanda and Will. The jackets go into production and are in our hands within the above-mentioned, original production time. The orders that went past five months should have been looked into, immediately.

With that said, Aero is incredibly responsive and will do everything it can to get orders out in a timely manner. The incredibly long wait times that I've heard about on the forums simply didn't make sense. If a business or customer is keeping an eye out for their interests, there is simply no problem, whatsoever.

It's the same with Vanson. When we place either a custom or off-the-rack order, we get a production time. When we get close to that production time and the order hasn't arrived (this is rare!), we're on it. I call Kim, ask her where we're at, and the jackets arrive. It's that simple...

It's the same with Schott, RS Taichi, Pilot USA, Sidi, Caborca, and every other custom company that we deal with. You have to get a production time at the date of order and hold the company that you ordered with to the quoted time of production. We currently have three companies (not Aero or Vanson), as of yesterday, one week past their quoted production times, and we're on it! Emails have been sent, calls made, original production quotes forwarded through email, and product is now in production. If we're at two to four weeks past a quoted production time, the customer's money is refunded and we're having a conversation with our distributor about how we can resolve the issue and not have it occur again. Follow up, look into it, protect your interests. It is true that sometimes orders can be delayed somewhat due to a number of unforeseen factors (large influx of orders, leather shortages, etc.), but you're not being a nuisance to inquire as to what's going on, why the order has exceeded the quoted production time, and when you can realistically expect your order to be delivered.

This will be of little consolation to those who have lost money due to what has occurred, but it will help you protect your investments in custom orders and products over the long haul.

 

[cloudylemonade]

There some gems in there, the evidence was there but for some reason people ignored it. I can understand if he just started the scheme a couple months ago but to drag on a jacket build for 2+ years is just unreal:

"Now in regards to wait time for the jacket, Mark doesn't have any control over that... it's all dependent on what Aero Scotland's workload is at that time. "

Personally I agree with JLStorm that it's largely out of Mark's control. He just takes the order; they fill them.

"I get the feeling that Mark has no control over when Aero Scotland sends out his jackets. Not sure why some orders seem to take so long. I feel sorry for him being put in the middle."

"Also Jeff, I believe you are right, he has no control over when the jackets for the American consumer are shipped, but judging by the posts from our European members, I would have to say we are last."

"I have a hard time believing Mark isn't forwarding the orders to Aero in a timely fashion.
He notes he only takes so many orders per month.
That being the case, it would appear the delay is on Aero's end"

"I agree completely; from where I stand, Mark appears more the victim, and the factory the villain. "

"This subject has been up several times - and still american customers go to this fellow Mark - and moan!
When do you ever learn? Call Aero Scotland directly. Great people and great service."

The reason for all these delays is that Mark never placed some of these orders, and the ones he did place it would appear he placed them months after he received them.

 

[cloudylemonade]

I thought you might like it! This comment really stuck out.

Posted by JLStorm, 09/09/2010

"He put himself in the middle, he is not part of Aero, he is a completely separate distributor affiliated with Aero as a reseller. He is basically the same as a beer distributor, that is affiliated with the beer company, but simply distributes to the public. The difference in this case is that the public can go directly to the manufacturer. … I wouldn't go around feeling sorry for him though. He chose to leverage his company as a reseller for a business that specializes in custom orders and dealing direct with the end user."

So, the fact that this was not Aero, but an unrelated affiliate/distributor was well known, and so Aero's current stance - that they are not responsible and could not have known what was going on - is perfectly reasonable, unlike what has been suggested earlier in this thread.

That thread also brings up an interesting suggestion. It seems that people thought Aero USA basically wasn't making any money.

Posted by TheSnark, 12/09/2010

"If you check Mark's prices on his website, you'll find that he charges the same as the factory (allowing for currency exchange, of course)"

Like this chap was somehow in business for the good of the customers. A company of almost mythical proportions around here … [huh]

Thank you for pointing the above out. And let me assure you Mark made money off re-selling these jackets, he purchased them from us at the lowest trade price we offered any wholesale customer.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, I expected that would be the case. Otherwise it would be a bit of an insane business model.

Reading through various threads (this one included) there seems to have been a remarkably dense cloud of misinformation, speculation and false information swirling around this operation. It begins to look like quite a complex web of deceit and manipulation. One can understand customers having to lose their money if a business suddenly goes tits up - that's why we have bankruptcy laws in their various formats in different countries - but this has evidently been going on too long for the "catastrophic life/business event" defence.

bk

 

[cloudylemonade]

Yes, I expected that would be the case. Otherwise it would be a bit of an insane business model.

Reading through various threads (this one included) there seems to have been a remarkably dense cloud of misinformation, speculation and false information swirling around this operation. It begins to look like quite a complex web of deceit and manipulation. One can understand customers having to lose their money if a business suddenly goes tits up - that's why we have bankruptcy laws in their various formats in different countries - but this has evidently been going on too long for the "catastrophic life/business event" defence.

bk

Unfortunately I think you're bang on with that, I can't see that this could possibly have happened from bad planning/poor business structure. I only wish we were aware of things sooner and could have put a stop to things before they were so out of control.

I'm sorry again to all of Mark's customers who've been left in this awful situation, and sorry that you were lead to believe delays you've been subjected to all along were the fault of us in Scotland.

 

[hpalapdog]

I thought you might like it! This comment really stuck out.

Posted by JLStorm, 09/09/2010

"He put himself in the middle, he is not part of Aero, he is a completely separate distributor affiliated with Aero as a reseller. He is basically the same as a beer distributor, that is affiliated with the beer company, but simply distributes to the public. The difference in this case is that the public can go directly to the manufacturer. … I wouldn't go around feeling sorry for him though. He chose to leverage his company as a reseller for a business that specializes in custom orders and dealing direct with the end user."

So, the fact that this was not Aero, but an unrelated affiliate/distributor was well known, and so Aero's current stance - that they are not responsible and could not have known what was going on - is perfectly reasonable, unlike what has been suggested earlier in this thread.

That thread also brings up an interesting suggestion. It seems that people thought Aero USA basically wasn't making any money.

Posted by TheSnark, 12/09/2010

"If you check Mark's prices on his website, you'll find that he charges the same as the factory (allowing for currency exchange, of course)"

Like this chap was somehow in business for the good of the customers. A company of almost mythical proportions around here … [huh]

What's the difference between a factory rep, as Mr Moye called himself, and an "affiliate/distributor" ?
I doubt the average Ebayite and non-forumite would make one !

As for profit margins. The Aero Scotland website includes 20% UK VAT. Obviously, being non-EU, Mr Moye didn't have to pay that and got a trade discount of 20% off the ex-VAT price. Seems enough to make a profit albeit a small one. Trade discounts are normally much more generous than that in the clothing industry.

 

[dr.velociraptor]

This is probably the most telling quote for how much people were bamboozled by this guy:

"I get the feeling that Mark has no control over when Aero Scotland sends out his jackets. Not sure why some orders seem to take so long. I feel sorry for him being put in the middle."

He has people waiting years for a jacket they paid close to $1000 for and they feel sorry for him being put in the middle?Hiis entire business is him being in the middle of the transaction.

 

[hpalapdog]

There some gems in there, the evidence was there but for some reason people ignored it. I can understand if he just started the scheme a couple months ago but to drag on a jacket build for 2+ years is just unreal:

"Now in regards to wait time for the jacket, Mark doesn't have any control over that... it's all dependent on what Aero Scotland's workload is at that time. "

Personally I agree with JLStorm that it's largely out of Mark's control. He just takes the order; they fill them.

"I get the feeling that Mark has no control over when Aero Scotland sends out his jackets. Not sure why some orders seem to take so long. I feel sorry for him being put in the middle."

"Also Jeff, I believe you are right, he has no control over when the jackets for the American consumer are shipped, but judging by the posts from our European members, I would have to say we are last."

"I have a hard time believing Mark isn't forwarding the orders to Aero in a timely fashion.
He notes he only takes so many orders per month.
That being the case, it would appear the delay is on Aero's end"

"I agree completely; from where I stand, Mark appears more the victim, and the factory the villain. "

"This subject has been up several times - and still american customers go to this fellow Mark - and moan!
When do you ever learn? Call Aero Scotland directly. Great people and great service."

Interesting post but it's bad form to use unattributed quotes.

 

[trob09]

It's the same with Vanson. When we place either a custom or off-the-rack order, we get a production time. When we get close to that production time and the order hasn't arrived (this is rare!), we're on it. I call Kim, ask her where we're at, and the jackets arrive. It's that simple...

My experience with Vanson has been exactly the opposite. I ordered a pair of leather riding pants to go with my armored riding jacket (using Vanson's zip-together system.) well over a year ago. At the time I was told "within a month" the order would be done. a month came and went and I didn't yet have my riding pants. When I contacted Vanson, I was told that they didn't have any leather and were looking for a new tannery. Over the course of the next 6 months, the story was always the same - the owner was out that very day looking at a new tannery and they should have leather within a month and the order would be completed within 6 weeks. I heard this story over and over again. Eventually I stopped calling (july of last year). I have no idea if my order is still pending with Vanson or not. My CC has expired so I don't really worry about that - if they try to charge me it will get rejected. I'm just happy they didn't charge me at the outset.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has had this experience with Vanson.

 

[cloudylemonade]

Something else we'd like to point out, when Mark's eBay text first stated that he was now limiting orders to 12-16 jackets a month "to get to grips with the lead time" there was no such limit from the factory on orders. We have always sent out as many orders as he's been able to pay for, no limitations beyond that.

This is a subtle, but very well used marketing ploy to get even more orders on the books. If one is told they "can't have something" they'll want it even more. This seems to have been started at the same time as he started his "deposit now, pay later" scheme from what we can gather from posts on here. An offer that is totally at odds with a "limited production run", one says there is too much work booked already, while the second is an encouragement to take on even more work.

 

[zaman fu]

Something else we'd like to point out, when Mark's eBay text first stated that he was now limiting orders to 12-16 jackets a month "to get to grips with the lead time" there was no such limit from the factory on orders. We have always sent out as many orders as he's been able to pay for, no limitations beyond that.

This is a subtle, but very well used marketing ploy to get even more orders on the books. If one is told they "can't have something" they'll want it even more. This seems to have been started at the same time as he started his "deposit now, pay later" scheme from what we can gather from posts on here. An offer that is totally at odds with a "limited production run", one says there is too much work booked already, while the second is an encouragement to take on even more work.

What I don't understand is how this ploy worked when people were free to order directly from Aero Scotland, especially since they don't charge your card until your jacket ships.

 

[dr.velociraptor]

Interesting post but it's bad form to use unattributed quotes.

Honestly in light of how everything went so south after the topic, I purposely omitted the members name from these quotes as to not look like I'm calling them out or anything, anyone can just visit the link to see who posted them.

 

[hpalapdog]

Honestly in light of how everything went so south after the topic, I purposely omitted the members name from these quotes as to not look like I'm calling them out or anything, anyone can just visit the link to see who posted them.

OK.

It does indeed look like Mr Moye was made Saint Moye for no good reason.

 

[Mojo1975]

What I don't understand is how this ploy worked when people were free to order directly from Aero Scotland, especially since they don't charge your card until your jacket ships.

I agree here on this point, especially since Aero USA was only online, as I understand it.

However, in a case like ours (Insurrection), people can come into our shop, try on Aero, feel the hides, see the liners, see the fits, etc. We offer a brick and mortar location where people can feel a much higher degree of consumer confidence because they're beginning with tangible product. Some buy off-the-rack and some try on what we have in stock and order custom pieces.

The fact of the matter is that Aero is better off with dealers, just as Vanson is, just as RS Taichi is, and just as about every other high-end company I know of is. Dealers allow for the product line to reach a wider audience and produce brand awareness and confidence.

Our Aero account is quite small compared to our other accounts, but I sincerely do hope that this circumstance doesn't have all buyers spooked and ordering ONLY from Aero Scotland. There's something quite significant about being able to try on a product, take a look at its construction, feel the hide, etc., and you're not going to get that from ordering overseas...

 

[fedoralover]

What I don't understand is how this ploy worked when people were free to order directly from Aero Scotland, especially since they don't charge your card until your jacket ships.

Good question. I ordered an A-2 from Mark about 4 years ago. Had no problems thankfully. But I guess living here in the U.S. it "Appeared" to be more personal and comfortable to deal with a "homeboy" than with the factory in a far away land. And I also had the impression he was working for Aero Scotland. He was super responsive to my emails and very personable. I really feel for everyone that got taken advantage off. Seems he was the Bernie Madoff of leather jackets.

fedoralover

 

[sbhva]

Good question. I ordered an A-2 from Mark about 4 years ago. Had no problems thankfully. But I guess living here in the U.S. it "Appeared" to be more personal and comfortable to deal with a "homeboy" than with the factory in a far away land. And I also had the impression he was working for Aero Scotland. He was super responsive to my emails and very personable. I really feel for everyone that got taken advantage off. Seems he was the Bernie Madoff of leather jackets.

fedoralover

Has the penny finally dropped??? This situation looks like a classic Ponzi scheme to me. The early investors and select other investors get paid off well and fast (get their jackets) to act as unsuspecting reference accounts while others are stalled and the money is sucked out.

 

[pattonfan]

When the economy goes South...

... people's true natures surface. He probably didn't intend on this at first. As things got tighter, he saw opportunity and started dipping his hands in to all of those easily accessible deposits. Seen it in my line of work. Someone gets behind, starts robbing Peter to pay Paul, then everbody else is left holding the bag.
I got nervous as soon as I paid in full. I noticed all of the signs too late, and ignored my own intuition. But, yeah, it's pretty glaringly obvious in hindsight.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Admittedly, I’m still climbing the front side of this information curve, but please let me caution everyone to choose their words carefully. From what I have read, Mark Moye has breached some contracts, but I’m not sure I see criminal conduct. I would urge folks not to use terms like “fraud” and “ponzi scheme” too casually.

So far, with one glaring exception, I see a course of conduct I normally see when retail businesses become insolvent. Contrary to popular belief, such businesses don’t usually go from being profitable to losing money overnight. And there is often a significant time lag before the owner understands that what he thought was a temporary downward cycle is actually pending insolvency. More normally, when things begin turning sour, the owner begins “robbing Peter to pay Paul” and starts stringing along customers and generally doing whatever he can do to stay afloat…in the honest hope that better times are ahead. And, yes, this includes lying to customers and suppliers out of the rational fear that bad information will scare away future business and frighten creditors. For Moye’s business to have taken a couple of years to finally devolve to this point is not, in my opinion, terribly atypical.

The glaring exception? I can’t find a bankruptcy petition. That’s why I went to the effort to look for one.

Honest business people who find themselves in a hopeless financial situation sooner or later come to grips with the fact that they need protection by the Bankruptcy Courts. Dishonest people in the same financial situation know that they can’t file for such protection. The process one must go through in order to gain the protection of Chapter 7 or 11 is specifically designed to uncover fraud. Had Moye found himself two years into a downward spiral, and he couldn’t honestly see his way out of it, I would have expected him to have filed for bankruptcy. But, as I stated earlier, he may have done exactly this, but in a jurisdiction other than South Carolina...so I'm not quite ready to put much weight on even this bit of information.

AF

 

[Harry Gooch]

Admittedly, I’m still climbing the front side of this information curve, but please let me caution everyone to choose their words carefully. From what I have read, Mark Moye has breached some contracts, but I’m not sure I see criminal conduct. I would urge folks not to use terms like “fraud” and “ponzi scheme” too casually.

So far, with one glaring exception, I see a course of conduct I normally see when retail businesses become insolvent. Contrary to popular belief, such businesses don’t usually go from being profitable to losing money overnight. And there is often a significant time lag before the owner understands that what he thought was a temporary downward cycle is actually pending insolvency. More normally, when things begin turning sour, the owner begins “robbing Peter to pay Paul” and starts stringing along customers and generally doing whatever he can do to stay afloat…in the honest hope that better times are ahead. And, yes, this includes lying to customers and suppliers out of the rational fear that bad information will scare away future business and frighten creditors. For Moye’s business to have taken a couple of years to finally devolve to this point is not, in my opinion, terribly atypical.

The glaring exception? I can’t find a bankruptcy petition. That’s why I went to the effort to look for one.

Honest business people who find themselves in a hopeless financial situation sooner or later come to grips with the fact that they need protection by the Bankruptcy Courts. Dishonest people in the same financial situation know that they can’t file for such protection. The process one must go through in order to gain the protection of Chapter 7 or 11 is specifically designed to uncover fraud. Had Moye found himself two years into a downward spiral, and he couldn’t honestly see his way out of it, I would have expected him to have filed for bankruptcy. But, as I stated earlier, he may have done exactly this, but in a jurisdiction other than South Carolina...so I'm not quite ready to put much weight on even this bit of information.

AF

Excellent advice, Atticus. Always a pleasure to read your posts.

Harry.