Zoot Suits?

[thomasbonilsson]

Are they all gone?

Does anyone here have a real zoot suit, not a replica? I have heard that they were used so hard by the youngsters that there isn't really any left.

 

[flat-top]

It's great when the guys who were there the first time, the originals, put the stamp of approval on us continuing their sartorial/stylistic legacy.

I totally agree....I don't wear zoots, but whenever I'm at work and older gentlemen (or ladies) comment on how they used to own (or remember) stuff just like what I'm wearing, it feels great! Total validation!

 

[resortes805]

Does anyone here have a real zoot suit, not a replica? I have heard that they were used so hard by the youngsters that there isn't really any left.

I have two pairs of vintage "stuffed-cuff" pegged trousers. . I'll try and post some pictures. I know that Wildroot has a vintage pair as well. While the zoot suit went out of fashion rather quickly in urban areas after the war (due in part to the violence of the riots) pegged trousers remained pretty popular in rural areas, well into the fifites.

 

[resortes805]

original zoot trousers

Here are some pics of original zoot trousers that I picked up in a vintage clothing store in San Diego. (They are the dark slacks on the left). Compare the oval shaped taper to the slight square taper of the green flannel slacks (also from the forties).

Here some of the details at the waist...as you can see these pants have seen better days . . .

 

[Edward]

'Eliot Ness' and 'Al Capone' out of the hat when they see a properly-dressed gentleman. The most wild and oulandish aspect of the era has been beaten to death in popular culture, and it's all people know anymore. We have Hollywood's fascination with '30s crime fiction to thank for that...

I thanked a woman profusely when she called me Fred Astaire!

FWIW, I get called Al Capone any time I appear in a hat and pinstripes... I kinda like it, though!

I have a pair of trousers that were made for me by a friend, using a zoot suit pattern I found on eBay (disturbingly enough, of the two guys on the cover photo of the pattern, one of them looks like Tom Cruise...!). I had them run up for a Joker costume I put together for a burlesque night on April Fool's last, and it got me interested in the zoot suit thang. Kinda fancy one now, but I'm wary.... there's a place I know I could have a beautiful one made to measure here in the UK, but it'd be pushing GBP300 (currently about 600 bucks US). Lot of money for something I wouldn't exactly be able to wear in the office!!

 

[Benny Holiday]

Colours?

A friend of mine saw Malcolm X for the first time the other day. He's not into vintage at all and, while he appreciated the biography, he was amazed by the colours of the zoot suits depicted in the first part of the film. Knowing I have a couple of zoot suits, he asked me if the colours were accurate.

I'd always assumed the zoot suits of early 40's were often colourful. Though I can't speak for African-American culture, I know a lot of African-Australians and they wear the most brilliant colours (both men and women) that traditionally Western men wouldn't wear - red, orange, yellow, purple, electric blue. Of course, a lot of them have extremely dark skin, and the contrast looks fantastic.

From their website, I've seen that El Pachuco sell a range of colourful zoots. What do you guys know of the original colours? Were the zoot suits really that flashy back in the day? Was it more of a 'Harlem' look?

 

[Edward]

I'm no expert either, though I have often wondered about that. I do love the look of a good zoot in a really pronounced chalkstripe, not so much in the birght reds or yellows - too Jim Carey for me. But it could well have been true.... Certainly it's the case nowadays in my experience that black men of all ages will typically be open to dressing more flamboyantly than the average white guy. I'm not talking the hip hop bling style, but when I go to church on a sunday morning, our place has a very broad ethnic mix (I think at the last count about forty different nationalities represented), and it's always the black folks who seem to really go for it in terms of best - and best is really quite flamboyant. There's one guy, Nigerian in origin if memory serves, though he's been living in the UK for forty years or more, in his seventies, dresses really sharp and pulls it off way better than most folks half his age.

In a similar vein, FWIW, I've often wondered whether the Teddy boy drape jackets were available in all those bright pastel shades that you tend to see them in now. Seems a bit false somehow, like an old West cowboy in a pink shirt and a powder blue waistcoat. They were all bright colours at the time of the 70s Ted revival, but I don't know about in the fifties.... Sometimes, though, I wonder do I just tend to assume everything was brown, black, grey or navy back in the 30s / 40s because there are so few colour photos from the period....

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have one pair of what i think are zoot trousers (though the taper became less pronounced when i shortened the legs - don't worry i didn't cut any fabric off.). But then, that's just my impresssion. Without a jacket, i have no idea if they were actually from a zoot suit or not. They are dark blue with white chalk stripe.

I really hate the look. IMO it's just not flattering on anyone.

bk

 

[Edward]

I have one pair of what i think are zoot trousers (though the taper became less pronounced when i shortened the legs - don't worry i didn't cut any fabric off.). But then, that's just my impresssion. Without a jacket, i have no idea if they were actually from a zoot suit or not. They are dark blue with white chalk stripe.

I really hate the look. IMO it's just not flattering on anyone.

bk

I loved my trousers, though not sure what impact the swallow tails had on them; I know I find a long, frock-coat style jacket can be a difficult thing for a lot of people to carry off without it cutting them off at the knees, which can make a true zoot look awkward on some men.

[huh]

What i really don't care for are a lot of what are sold as zoot suits these days - basically a regular suit with a longer line jacket. IMO, it's the combination of the long jacket and the cut of the trousers together which defines a zoot suit, not simply a frock coat. IMO, if you're gonig to do a zoot, do it right, or not!

 

[resortes805]

Were the zoot suits really that flashy back in the day? Was it more of a 'Harlem' look?

Yes and no. Malcolm X, as "Detriot Red" was your average zooter, and he describes his zoot suits in great detail in his autobiography. Judging by the descriptions, the "loudness" was in the cut of the suit, and not so much the fabric. Of the two suits I remember, his first was a sharskin gray, and the second was sky blue. Of course, on the performers of the day, you saw these huge glen plaid checks and other wild fabrics, but on most of the contemporary photos of the "zooter on the street" the fabrics really don't seem all that wild (of course there's no telling what the colors would have been, being B&W photos).

Pachucos, however, exclusively wore dark and somber tones. Honestly, little has changed, the pachuco look is as different from the Harlem zooter as the Cholo look is as different from the hip- hop look. To the outsider, it all looks like baggy clothing, but any hep kat can tell the difference.

 

[Benny Holiday]

In a similar vein, FWIW, I've often wondered whether the Teddy boy drape jackets were available in all those bright pastel shades that you tend to see them in now. Seems a bit false somehow, like an old West cowboy in a pink shirt and a powder blue waistcoat. They were all bright colours at the time of the 70s Ted revival, but I don't know about in the fifties.... Sometimes, though, I wonder do I just tend to assume everything was brown, black, grey or navy back in the 30s / 40s because there are so few colour photos from the period....

I stayed with some friends in the Teddy Boy scene when I visited London back in '92. At that time, the Teds were experiencing a revival of the authentic early 50's Teddy Boy look, which consisted of darker coloured drape suits, with usually four or three-button coats, vintage 1950's ties of about 2.5 inches in width, and brocade wasitcoats that would've looked at home on Doc Holliday. The bright coloured red and yellow drapes were denigrated as being "70's" or "Showaddywaddy rubbish" and the Teddy Boy look was a lot more elegant than cartoonish.

One thing that struck me as well was a video one of my friends had with lots of old footage from the 50's, if I remember right it was called "Long Coats, Short Tempers" or something like that. When you see the original film, it's surpirsing how young those Teddy Boys and Girls were. Most of them appeared to be about 15 years old, with some as old as 18 or 19, which is very much how my Dad described the zoot suiters here in the 1940's.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Pachucos, however, exclusively wore dark and somber tones. Honestly, little has changed, the pachuco look is as different from the Harlem zooter as the Cholo look is as different from the hip- hop look. To the outsider, it all looks like baggy clothing, but any hep kat can tell the difference.

Or East Coast from West? I imagine that the zoot suits the Bodgies wore here in Australia back then would probably have looked like the ones in the picture I posted on page 4 of this thread, where the serviceman is talking to the two young white guys in their zoots. As to colours - well, Dad never mentioned what colours they were. He just said he didn't go for the look himself and thought the blokes who wore them were, for the most part, louts.
I do know that the Bodgie look prided itself on the Tony Curtis haircut and brightly-coloured shirts that matched with one's brightly-coloured socks!

 

[LordJohnRoxton]

Never was much for the zoots myself, but you have to admire the styling. When you think about the level of investment which a zoot suit represented for the average joe, it's quite impressive. I understand my grandfather had one before the war, but God knows where the pictures ended up!

 

[twobarbreak]

I did some research on this and spoke to quite a few people from back in day, I also referenced film and photo's.

The Zoot suit in Harlem was in fact different then the Zoot or Drapes in Los Angeles, however during the swing era the influences effected each other.

In Harlem they did have Bright miss matched colors and patterns on purpose so you could clearly spot a zooter a mile away, In Harlem it was more about the colors and patterns at first then the cut. Check out the short soundie film called "a zoot suit with a reet pleat".

The Pachuco's in East LA wore drapes, it was about the size and style and not loud colors.

Like i said, they eventually influenced one another.

I was told told by a 90 year old tailor in Downtown LA, Drape or Zoot came from the 20's , originally from the Phillipino's working in Kitchen's in Downtown who wore a one size fits all that was called a peg top and during that time Mexican immigrants working along side them also adopted the peg tops, and took pride in them by pressing and creasing them while going out and not just at work. He showed me some interesting photo's which left me no doubts what he said was accurate from the LA side of things, not that there couldn't be any other influences along the way, but cool none the less...

 

[twobarbreak]

another tid bit about Zooters in Harlem is they were primarily pimps,pushers etc...(hence the bright colors to wave them down for Biz, or to avoid them).

They were not "dancers" , Frankie Manning who was a Savoy Ballroom Lindy Hopper said they didnt like Zooters, because they would come to the Savoy and just hang out and try and take their chicks....lol

In LA after 1940 very few dancers incorporated the zoot fashion, but they tended to be from east LA and danced at Trianon Ballroom or Zenda's Ballroom.

 

[Edward]

I stayed with some friends in the Teddy Boy scene when I visited London back in '92. At that time, the Teds were experiencing a revival of the authentic early 50's Teddy Boy look, which consisted of darker coloured drape suits, with usually four or three-button coats, vintage 1950's ties of about 2.5 inches in width, and brocade wasitcoats that would've looked at home on Doc Holliday. The bright coloured red and yellow drapes were denigrated as being "70's" or "Showaddywaddy rubbish" and the Teddy Boy look was a lot more elegant than cartoonish.

Cool, sounds like what I thought was accurate.... Yeah, the 70s revival stuff was very much in the vein of the "Showaddywaddy rubbish", but then isn't that what always happens when the mainstream fashion media get hold of an organic movement with the intent of making a buck and turn it into something prescriptive?

 

[LordJohnRoxton]

The Zoot Suit Riots: A Los Angeles Experience

I think that the Los Angeles Zoot Suit Riots need a bit more than a sentence.

The riots began in Los Angeles, amidst a period of rising gang violence. In October 1942, zoot suiters were charged with killing Jose Diaz in a supposed gang brawl at the Sleepy Lagoon reservoir (leading to a court trial whose convictions were later overturned), in May they rioted against police shutting down an illegal gambling operation, sailors claim that zoot suiters stabbed a sailor.Sensationalized accounts of criminal zoot suiters (pachucos) menacing local citizens were featured on the front pages of many newspapers. On May 31st, 1943, a group of sailors on leave confronted a gang of zoot suiters; one sailor, Joe Dacy Coleman, was badly injured. In response, fifty sailors gathered and headed out to downtown and East Los Angeles, which was the center of the Mexican community. Once there, they attacked all the men they found wearing zoot suits, often ripping off the suits and burning them in the streets [citation needed]. They also raped pachuca women in the process [citation needed]. In many instances, the police intervened by arresting Mexican-American youths for disturbing the peace, leaving the sailors to the military justice system, in which punishment is often much more severe than in civil or criminal court. African Americans suffered the same fate as Mexican Americans. Several hundred pachucos and nine sailors were arrested as a result of the fighting that occurred over the next few days.

Of the nine sailors that were arrested, eight were released with no charges and one had to pay a small fine. Military authorities intervened on June 7, by declaring that Los Angeles would henceforth be off-limits to all military personnel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots

 

[dostacos]

My boyfriend is Mexican-American and loves zoot suits. It's one of his dreams to own a really nice one, perfectly tailored for him. I'm pretty indifferent to how they look, but I do love the history that's attatched to them.

when he gets the suit you need to get him to do "the Pose" hand in pocket leaning way back:eusa_clap If I tried that I would fall over.

My step brother wore a zuit suit to his High School Prom and really pulled off the look, the skinny little ^&%$^&%$

and nobody has mentioned Jim Carey's Zoot suit in the movie THE MASK:eusa_clap now THAT was a zoot suit!

Dan

 

[Benny Holiday]

Cool, sounds like what I thought was accurate.... Yeah, the 70s revival stuff was very much in the vein of the "Showaddywaddy rubbish", but then isn't that what always happens when the mainstream fashion media get hold of an organic movement with the intent of making a buck and turn it into something prescriptive?

Too true Edward.

 

[twobarbreak]

here is a photo video of the Zoot suit riots i put together to show the look...

shortZootSuitvideo