Zoot Suits?

[Wild Root]

Well said Brad.

I'd like to also add a few things to the discussion.

The Zoot in LA was worn for different reasons in LA then some other parts of the US. I believe the Zoot Suit was born in Harlem New York. It was kind of started by young black kids wearing over sized suits from their Father’s closets. It was seen in most Dance Halls and Juke Joints all over. The style was around just prior to WWII so, in most respects it was something a Jitterbug would wear if he was from a certain area. Most photos I have seen of kids dancing are wearing just high waisted slacks, striped T-shirts and white bucks or a nice suit with two tone shoes. Depends on if the youth was rich or poor. But, the Zoot was a suit nun the less, I’d have to disagree with you Vlad on this score. I feel the Zoot is a costume today in many respects, but then it was a suit worn when a young man of certain races would get dressed up. By the time the home front fabric rationing was put in place, the youth of that generation still wanted the Zoot style because it was in fashion among their groups. They wanted it so; they found ways to get the extra fabric to make them. By wearing them most people automatically judged them as being a protester. But, it was a different thing when there were youth dodging drafts and then wearing these suits. That wasn’t looked upon as being an American action. So, that’s why most service men were seen beating up guys in Zoots because of they’re bailing out on Uncle Sam and also braking laws. And remember that most youth of any color were not in favor with most white males or females of that time either.

I don’t dislike the Zoot my self but when it’s worn properly, it looks cool brother!

Angelicious wrote:
Also, many modern WASP types think of non-zoot vintage as being "like Grandad", or as someone said, "gangster wear". Zoots seem, to many, to be the "cooler" option compared to Grandad, but less of a cliché than the pinstripe "Capone" suit.

Angelicious, I find that funny in some respects. I have seen guys wear Zoots and some have come up to them and told them they looked like their Grandfather! There’s really nothing wrong with looking like your Grandfather in dress. I think it’s cool. Speaking of Grandfathers, I was at a dance a few weeks ago and I saw a man wearing a Zoot Suit. He was in his 60’s and it just looked AWFUL on the guy!

Angelicous, you made some good points on the immigrant youth of America of that time. Most couldn’t enlist! And since most of them were illegal they weren’t drafted. I wanted to tell you that sounds like good solid info brother! Makes sense to me!

Cheers,

Root.

 

[Angelicious]

I'd like to also add a few things to the discussion.

Do you have any URLs or books to recommend? Or is this just "absorbed" information?

What you said sounded interesting, and I'd love to know more...

Angelicious wrote:
Also, many modern WASP types think of non-zoot vintage as being "like Grandad", or as someone said, "gangster wear". Zoots seem, to many, to be the "cooler" option compared to Grandad, but less of a cliché than the pinstripe "Capone" suit.

Angelicious, I find that funny in some respects. I have seen guys wear Zoots and some have come up to them and told them they looked like their Grandfather! There’s really nothing wrong with looking like your Grandfather in dress. I think it’s cool. Speaking of Grandfathers, I was at a dance a few weeks ago and I saw a man wearing a Zoot Suit. He was in his 60’s and it just looked AWFUL on the guy!

It's true, looking like your grandfather (or grandmother) is no problem if you have confidence, maturity, and an eye for style. Then "gran-style" is just another fashion to draw from - and when your grandparents were in the Golden Era, it speaks for itself!

But I should have specified, I was referring to the use of Zoot Suits as prom/ball wear - young guys who usually associate parents and granparents with social embarrassment. [huh]

 

[resortes805]

thought i'd resurect this thread

We recently got a new scanner at where I worked, and I wanted to share some images related to zoot suiters and pachucos that I have collected over the years. I tried to stay away from ones that are pretty readily available on the internet and instead, opted for some rather obscure pieces.

 

[resortes805]

Who are these civil rights era figures?

Can you guess which civil rights era figures are in these two pictures?

 

[resortes805]

Harlem hepcats

 

[Benny Holiday]

I think maybe the first photo is of Lalo Guerrero, the 2nd is Malcolm X.

Great pics Resortes, thanks for showing those great rare photos!

 

[Mike in Seattle]

An awesome site for repro zoot suits and other stuff is - www.zootsuitstore.com they do nice hats too.

BUT if you have any questions about their products or want customer service questions answered, they're exceedingly difficult to deal with. Not that I was interested in a zoot suit, but in a couple 40's style suits they carried before we made one of our jaunts down south to the City by the Bay.

 

[reetpleat]

Cesar Chavez

Yes, Cezar Chavez wore a zoot suit, as did Malcolm X. I know a lot of the posts are old, but as this thread is still alive, thought I would weigh in as I am new on the site and love zoot suits.

While I kind of disagree with the portrayal of the zoot suit as a conscious protest, it certainly can be seen as a sartorial identifier with the other of non mainstream society. I suppose in fifty years or so, historians will point to the baggy pant thing as an active protest to the number of blacks in jail.

First worn in the 30s, it was not a war issue. It was a black style that was an exageration of white style in a sense. While white middle class kids then and now dressed sporty and down, as opposed to their daily dress of suits, black kids who wore work clothes in their menial jobs, would dress up on the weekend. Class stuff.

Anyway, Latinos in LA and other places, adopted the black style including piled "chonked" hair.

I really do not believe it was unpatriotic. I am not even convinced that there really was fabric rationing. Although more educated folks on this sight might correct me if I am mistaken. I believe it is all rationale for what was really anti imigrant, anti people of color sentiment. White military personel looking for a fight. They portrayed Latinos as anti american, not adopting anglo culture, not being patriotic, etc. The more things change....

So a bunch of service men, mostly from other more racist part of the country leave the bases and beat up Latinos on the pretext of them being unamerican.

So I think that the zoot suit was a youth style that was emulative of black culture as a way of identifying with american culture, but not straight mainstream clutur. It is the same today. While Latinos do have a sense of style of their own, much of their dancing, clothing styles, and music is vey influenced by black cluture.

From what I have seen, the Harlem style zoot suit was single breasted with three buttons and a pinched waist that was higher. The Latino Drape suit was ofthen double breasted, with a lower pinch of the waist creating the iconin "lowrider magazine" image. Also, the black zoot suiters often posed comically, kind of minstrelesque, with fingers pointed out and hands held at the side. The Latinos were much more stoic and cool. More connected to the black r and b style than the hot 30s swings style.

While Cab was great, he has said in some interview that he just created a costume to mirror the true Zoot look. The original style was not quite so over the top. They were just exagerated suits, as if to say you wer dresing like the man, but never could be the man. To this day, the Zoot suit has an iconinc place along with Gaberdine baggies, pencil moustaches, and low riders in Latino American culture. They have been around in the culture since back in the day. It is not uncommon for wedding parties to wear them or for prom or whatever. The companies in LA had been making them for years and only jumped into the dance scene when they saw the demand. Only problem is, since they do not see it as a vintge thing, the standards are not really up to what you might find on this board. Polyester and cheap Stacy Adams are par for the course. Still love the look.

Sorry to go on, but I love the whole thing and have a few thoughts and opinions. As a Latino, I feel a pecial conncetion. As for white kids wearing them, I won't say much except that as a Latino, I feel I have automatic "Pull it off" rights. Then again, as I am now pushing 40, I might have lost some of it on the youth front.

One last thing. Were Latinos not able to join the military if they were not citizens? Today, Mexican or others can actually get citizenship if they join the military. I would not be suprised if that was the case back then.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Great to have you on the lounge with us, Reetpleat, and great to have another cat here who loves the zoot style, too.

I've mentioned elsewhere on the site the history of the zoot in Australia and its cultural significance here, some of the information gleaned from history and some from my own Dad, who was around the age of 17 during WW2 when he first saw other youths sporting the zoot style.

Ironically, it was introduced here by American servicemen (and through the movies) and was an emblem of youthful exuberance and the Swing movement. Jazz musicians took to it in droves, as dig their jitterbug-crazed fans. It became the style associated with 'bodgies', the precursors to the rockers of the 50's, the hep guys who spoke American slang, followed American music and dance and were seen as cool. (The term 'bodgie' in Aussie slang means fake, false or half-done, like 'bodgie workmanship.' The term was shortened from 'bodgie Yank,' meaning someone who aped the American movie stars and servicemen. It was also a ploy in picking up girls; some bodgies even adopted fake American accents, because the visiting servicemen were very popular with the ladies).

My Dad didn't think much of them with their loud threads, at least until a bunch of zooters helped him out in a gang brawl (involving a football team!) one time. Dad remembered them as kids too young to enlist (not that that stopped him, he forged his mother's signature at 16 to join the Army), who, bored and wanting to fight the Japenese military forces, often ended up fighting with anyone else who'd have a go, including American soldiers on leave here.

I can't speak for what it's like is the U.S., but here, it was the beginning of a life-long love affair between Aussie youth and American youth culture that continues to this day. Of course, a lot of that hip urban style is African-American and Latino inspired, and I mean a whole lot. I read an article once ("The Return of El Pachuco", author's name forgotten) in which the writer contends that the real rationale behind the banning of the zoot was not just rationing, but the fact that style had spread beyond popularity with black, Hispanic and working class white kids and was becoming popular with middle-class white and Jewish youth. Now what teenager hasn't wanted to look cool and be seen as being cool, regardless of the tone of his skin? Kids want to have fun and be kids. I think the author makes a valid point there.

Reetpleat (and Resortes), do you have any relatives who were Pachucos back in the 40's and who've told you about their lives back then?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

great pics, Resortes.

I love the spiel under one of 'em: "Sociologists point out that although most young California mobsters wear zoot suits, it does not follow that most zoot suiters are mobsters."

Honestly? Did people really need to be told this?

grrrr

bk

 

[The Duke]

cool pics.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Another pic

A serviceman checks out the latest fashions in youthful clothing in 1942:

Notice the pockets on the drape are vertical, like on a duffle coat!

 

[reetpleat]

Reetpleat (and Resortes), do you have any relatives who were Pachucos back in the 40's and who've told you about their lives back then?[/QUOTE]


Actually, my mom is from Mexico city. So no stories, although I understand the style was popular in Mexico as well.

I agree that some of the outrage over zootsuits, just as over jazz or rock, was that white kids were getting into it.

When you think about it, in the black community, R and B and Rock and roll were not seen as particularly youth oriented or rebellious. Of course there were those who saw it as the devils music, but in the culture it was no more offensive than rap is to older african americans today.

The rebellion of rock and roll may have taken on greater depth in the sixties, but in the fifties the rebellion of it was actually listening to black music that upset and shocked "decent white folks."

From what I understand, the zoot suit style was also very popular with Philipinos and oakey kids who grew up in Latino neighborhoods. In the movie Zoot Suit, and I think in reality, one fo the defendants was scotch irish from oklahoma heritage.

For a cool look at a fifties mexican hipster who wore a zoot suit in an exagerated way, check out Tin Tan, a mexican comic movie star.

http://www.supermexicanos.com/tintan/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germán_Valdés

http://cinemexicano.mty.itesm.mx/estrellas/tintan.html

Don't get me started on ZootSuit Riot by the Cherry Poppin Daddies

Mateo

 

[Benny Holiday]

Tin Tan looks like quite the character! I like the part in the wikipedia reference where it stated he holds the record for kissing more co-stars in his films than any other leading man. Hey, it was a tough job, but somebody had to do it! lol

There's a lot that could be said about the racist policies of the authorities at the time of the zoot suit riots, but that's getting into politics and that's banned here. Suffice to say that, as a foreigner it's hard to understand how certain parts of history unfolded as they did in a nation that's Declaration of Independence declared all men as being created equal.

As for 'decent white folks," that's why I like Elvis so much. He really upset those middle-class squares no end! (Well, at least in the early years, anyway!).

 

[pigeon toe]

My boyfriend is Mexican-American and loves zoot suits. It's one of his dreams to own a really nice one, perfectly tailored for him. I'm pretty indifferent to how they look, but I do love the history that's attatched to them.

 

[resortes805]

Yup, the men in question are Cesar Chavez (who is on the far right of the picture) and Malcolm X. Lalo Guerrero, actually never wore zoot suits when he was young because he said he was too shy (a shy performer?).

My grandparents were teenagers during the late 40s-early 50s so they were preteens during the height of the zoot suit era and kind of missed it.

 

[Mr. Sable]

My Grandfather was (a white guy) in the RAF (British) and owned a zoot suit, but I think he only wore it in Canada. I only found out about this treasure and saw the photos years after it was given away to Goodwill. :cry:

 

[Benny Holiday]

Long story, but cool

About 8 years ago, my wife and I spent a week holidaying in Brisbane with our good friend and now fellow Lounge member Koop Kooper. Koop took us out to a Swing dance one evening, and I wore my black zoot suit, complete with black tando hat (Akubra squatter) and watch chain.

There were an older couple seated just outside the club's auditorium, drinking and chatting quietly. Both of them, especially the man, kept staring at me. It was really annoying me, I was expecting some stupid comment any minute. After some time, the man addressed me politely, and to my surprise was clearly impressed with the suit. His accent was thick American, and he said to me, "That's a great zoot suit. I had one just like it back in the 40's."

It turned out the gentleman had served in the Navy in adjunct to some of MacArthur's Pacific campaign, in the Phillipines and islands north of Australia, around what is now called Indonesia. While stationed in Australia, he stayed with a young Australian couple in Brisbane, under an arrangement where Australians could support the war effort by billeting visiting servicemen at their houses while the servicemen were on leave. They became good friends for life, visiting one another every decade or so. The lady's husband had passed away, but the former sailor had still come down to visit her and recall the good times they'd shared over the years.

He was fascinated with the zoot suit and was rapt to see one still being worn. he told me a lot about the war and serving in the Navy. I remember he told me that MacArthur and other high-ranking officers took a lot of gold out of the Phillipines with them when they left.

I could see why he and the Australian couple had benn friends for all those years. Both he and the lady were lovely people, and happy to share their memories and stories. All because of a black zoot suit!

 

[resortes805]

Wow, that's a great story!

Round about, 2000-2001, I attended a dance at the Avalon Ballroom on Catalina Island. Me and my girlfriend stopped at one of the sit-down restaurants for dinner and an older white gentleman and his wife stopped by our table and complimented me on my zoot suit (I was wearing a dove grey double breasted) and said he had purchased a similar suit at Murray's in 1941.

Years later I discovered that Murrays (on third and Main in LA) was THE spot for LA zooters to get their glad rags.

 

[Benny Holiday]

A dove grey DB zoot - no wonder the gentleman stopped to compliment you! Sounds razor sharp, man!

It's great when the guys who were there the first time, the originals, put the stamp of approval on us continuing their sartorial/stylistic legacy.