You know you are getting old when:

[tonyb]

View attachment 364154

Admittedly, it was taken thirty odd years ago. I didn't even have a pot belly back then, and I had hair on my head.

That photo dates from the time when H-D’s marketing and its product offerings were clicking along quite well. They were selling an image as much as a machine. The throwback styling was a big hit.

A good friend (RIP) had a Heritage Softail back then. He was anything but a redneck biker. He belonged to a club called the Border Riders, gay motorcyclists from both sides of the 49th parallel. They weren’t exclusively Harley, though. My friend sometimes took his old BMW R60 on club rides.

 

[GHT]

I imagine then a defining sign of very old age would be the motorized rocking chair/lazy boy?

Never could get to grips with all that motorised technology, mind you, my missus does get a bit p*ss*d off when she has to wind it up.

 

[belfastboy]

Never could get to grips with all that motorised technology, mind you, my missus does get a bit p*ss*d off when she has to wind it up.

View attachment 364212

I want one!

 

[GHT]

I want one!

Now whose a lazy boy?

 

[Fifty150]

When I see a Confederate flag flying in Maine -- and I do, often -- I get very very angry.

They fly in California also. I see them in San Francisco.

Witness Harley-Davidson, for instance.

Harley is a very unique glimpse into marketing psychology. They achieved something that other brands have not. People are willing to tattoo their logo. More money is made licensing the brand logo and selling merchandise, than they make selling motorcycles. And for an all American bike, a lot of the parts are from China, Japan, Germany......not so all American. Now they are producing bikes in India, while closing USA factories.

American pickup trucks are unique. They are still protected from import competition by The Chicken Tax. Jeeps are in a market class of their own. Their product has almost zero competition. Even Ford and Chevy don't sell a direct competitor. Almost as if the market was fixed.

 

[Tiki Tom]

When I was living in Europe, I used to crack up at pudgy middle aged Germans replicating the whole “American motor cycle gang” look. On any Sunday you’d see a handful of them cruising the autobahns on their bikes. As Fifty150 said, the Harley-Davidson brand is pure marketing gold. (Sort of like the Playboy brand. The brand no longer really exists, but the logo is worth a fortune.) Re Harley-Davidson, and also the confederate flag, isn’t it mostly driven by the human impulse to say “look at me! I’m not a conformist! I’m a rebel at heart!” (And then on Monday they take the kids to school and scurry to their corporate bean counter job.)

 

[tonyb]

… And for an all American bike, a lot of the parts are from China, Japan, Germany......not so all American. Now they are producing bikes in India, while closing USA factories.

…

It’s been something like 40 years ago when I heard Harley aficionados debating if using a Mikuni carburetor was blasphemous.

 

[tonyb]

And …

A look at Harley’s sales figures over the past few years (glub, glub) is all the reason the company needed to aim for more, um, inclusion(?) in its product offerings and public image.

 

[belfastboy]

Now whose a lazy boy?

My brother often said I was waaay beyond a Lazy Boy and I was in 'I Give Up/Total Capitulation' territory.

 

[Fifty150]

if using a Mikuni carburetor was blasphemous.

The Original Equipment Manufacturer, Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company, built the bikes with a Keihin Constant Velocity carburetor. Keihin is a Japanese company. The factory is in China. The batteries were Yuasa. A Chinese company. Fuel lines were secured with Oetiker from Germany (which used to require ordering special clamps and tools from Germany). Electronics used Deutsch connectors, which also requires proprietary tools. It goes on, and on, and on. Brakes. Brake lines. Mirrors. Switches. Big parts. Small parts. Almost everything came from an overseas supplier. Mainly because nothing is made in The USA. Impossible to find any of that stuff. Everyone does it. Ford. GM. Chrysler. Almost all auto parts are made in other countries. Look at how many different cars have those defective Takata airbags.

Harley was once upon a time, owned by a company which specialized in bowling pins. AMF, 69 - 81. Some say that was when the company began it's downhill spiral. I don't know. Somewhere along the way, everyone at Harley turned a blind eye to declining sales. They couldn't figure out that they were selling motorcycles which cost more than some cars, and that not everyone wanted a 1,000 pound "hog". Much in the same way that US car makers clung to the idea that everybody wanted to own a V8 muscle car. Apparently, within the last decade, more progressive thinkers began making decisions around the model line-up. Fuel Injection. Electric. Smaller models. They are now aware that there is a global market for motorcycles; and most of the world does not want a Fat Bob or Road King.

 

[ChiTownScion]

The fashions are far less troubling to me than the attitudes. When I see a Confederate flag flying in Maine -- and I do, often -- I get very very angry.

As well you should. I wonder what those men of the 20th Maine who held the end of the Federal line on an obscure Pennsylvania hill known as Little Round Top might have to say on the subject.

The funny part is when they fly a Southern Cross pattern in 3 x 5 dimensions it's actually a reproduction of a Confederate Naval banner. A "battle flag," but definitely not employed by land forces of the South in that war.

 

[Fifty150]

 

[Zombie_61]

...The funny part is when they fly a Southern Cross pattern in 3 x 5 dimensions it's actually a reproduction of a Confederate Naval banner. A "battle flag," but definitely not employed by land forces of the South in that war.

Right. The pattern is the same, but the actual confederate flags were square, not rectangular. Almost everyone gets it wrong.

 

[Rmccamey]

You know you're old when you sit in a rocking chair & can't get it going.

...and then can't get up and out of the chair without assistance!

 

[Harp]

As well you should. I wonder what those men of the 20th Maine who held the end of the Federal line on an obscure Pennsylvania hill known as Little Round Top might have to say on the subject.

Chamberlain I believe would view the matter rationally as a constitutional right of free speech
as I also hold would Jefferson; whom addressed the converse right of silence.
Masterpiece Cake Shop v Colorado; Arlene's Flowers v Washington
As a coin or flag has two sides, so too does this particular right of free speech, and, Chamberlain
the unorthodox tactician who ordered the bayonet against the Texans would accord this fact.

 

[ChiTownScion]

"... and, Chamberlain the unorthodox tactician who ordered the bayonet against the Texans would accord this fact."

The bayonet charge was conducted against the 15th Alabama under the command of William C. Oates.

The War Between the Union and the Confederacy, and Its Lost Opportunities ... - William Calvin Oates - Google Books

 

[tonyb]

The Original Equipment Manufacturer, Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company, built the bikes with a Keihin Constant Velocity carburetor. Keihin is a Japanese company. The factory is in China. The batteries were Yuasa. A Chinese company. Fuel lines were secured with Oetiker from Germany (which used to require ordering special clamps and tools from Germany). Electronics used Deutsch connectors, which also requires proprietary tools. It goes on, and on, and on. Brakes. Brake lines. Mirrors. Switches. Big parts. Small parts. Almost everything came from an overseas supplier. Mainly because nothing is made in The USA. Impossible to find any of that stuff. Everyone does it. Ford. GM. Chrysler. Almost all auto parts are made in other countries. Look at how many different cars have those defective Takata airbags.

Harley was once upon a time, owned by a company which specialized in bowling pins. AMF, 69 - 81. Some say that was when the company began it's downhill spiral. I don't know. Somewhere along the way, everyone at Harley turned a blind eye to declining sales. They couldn't figure out that they were selling motorcycles which cost more than some cars, and that not everyone wanted a 1,000 pound "hog". Much in the same way that US car makers clung to the idea that everybody wanted to own a V8 muscle car. Apparently, within the last decade, more progressive thinkers began making decisions around the model line-up. Fuel Injection. Electric. Smaller models. They are now aware that there is a global market for motorcycles; and most of the world does not want a Fat Bob or Road King.

Curiosity is getting the better of me, such that I’ve been reading up on recent developments at H-D.

They dropped the smaller, far less expensive Street 750 and Street 500 models earlier this year. They haven’t made V-Rods (a big bike, but very different from the “classic” big Harley V-twin machines) since the 2017 model year. The CEO stepped down and resigned his seat on the board. They closed the Kansas City plant. And sales are still in decline, at a time when motorcycle sales overall have increased.

Harley-Davidson did quite well in the post-bowling ball era. Marketing the “image” worked when the large baby boom generation was of an age when they were making enough money to buy expensive bikes but were still young enough to ride the things. And when the “biker” image wasn’t so tainted as it has become in more recent times.

I knew some guys, going back 30 or 40 years or so, who were members of a motorcycle club (don’t call it a “gang”) with some affiliation with one of the more notorious “clubs” — the Gypsy Jokers or the Bandidos (sic) or maybe the Angels; I don’t recall which. I got along with them okay, and was invited to ride along in the “ride van,” which tailed the riders on their expeditions and carried the camping gear and spare parts and whatnot. (I declined that invitation.)

I have little doubt that the club members got something of real value out of their participation — camaraderie, mostly, and quite a bit of fun. They made connections there, which led to them securing employment (blue collar, almost exclusively) and other, um, business opportunities.

But it seemed they couldn’t go five minutes without something racist or misogynistic or anti-gay or anti-immigrant crossing their lips. I’m a straight white male born in the USA, which I soon realized was the most basic requirement for entrance into that world. (And I know that comments racist and misogynistic and anti-gay and anti-immigrant have crossed my lips as well. As the Rev. Jackson put it, God isn’t done with me yet.) In a way, they reminded me of my stepfather’s Southern family — loyal and generous to one another (to a fault, sometimes), but undoubtedly racist. They’re steeped in it.

A few hundred thousand bikers (on Harleys, mostly) attending the annual Sturgis rally might leave the impression that the future for Harley-Davidson remains bright. I believe that impression would be mistaken. I further believe that H-D should risk alienating that portion of their customer base by distancing themselves from it. That is literally a dying breed. It’s not the future.

EDIT: It seems the attendance figures for the Sturgis rally are very likely exaggerated, seeing how they’re based on the number of vehicle crossings at a dozen or so roads in the area, and that most attendees make those crossings multiple times.

 

[belfastboy]

Curiosity is getting the better of me, such that I’ve been reading up on recent developments at H-D.

They dropped the smaller, far less expensive Street 750 and Street 500 models earlier this year. They haven’t made V-Rods (a big bike, but very different from the “classic” big Harley V-twin machines) since the 2017 model year. The CEO stepped down and resigned his seat on the board. They closed the Kansas City plant. And sales are still in decline, at a time when motorcycle sales overall have increased.

Harley-Davidson did quite well in the post-bowling ball era. Marketing the “image” worked when the large baby boom generation was of an age when they were making enough money to buy expensive bikes but were still young enough to ride the things. And when the “biker” image wasn’t so tainted as it has become in more recent times.

I knew some guys, going back 30 or 40 years or so, who were members of a motorcycle club (don’t call it a “gang”) with some affiliation with one of the more notorious “clubs” — the Gypsy Jokers or the Bandidos (sic) or maybe the Angels; I don’t recall which. I got along with them okay, and was invited to ride along in the “ride van,” which tailed the riders on their expeditions and carried the camping gear and spare parts and whatnot. (I declined that invitation.)

I have little doubt that the club members got something of real value out of their participation — camaraderie, mostly, and quite a bit of fun. They made connections there, which led to them securing employment (blue collar, almost exclusively) and other, um, business opportunities.

But it seemed they couldn’t go five minutes without something racist or misogynistic or anti-gay or anti-immigrant crossing their lips. I’m a straight white male born in the USA, which I soon realized was the most basic requirement for entrance into that world. (And I know that comments racist and misogynistic and anti-gay and anti-immigrant have crossed my lips as well. As the Rev. Jackson put it, God isn’t done with me yet.) In a way, they reminded me of my stepfather’s Southern family — loyal and generous to one another (to a fault, sometimes), but undoubtedly racist. They’re steeped in it.

A few hundred thousand bikers (on Harleys, mostly) attending the annual Sturgis rally might leave the impression that the future for Harley-Davidson remains bright. I believe that impression would be mistaken. I further believe that H-D should risk alienating that portion of their customer base by distancing themselves from it. That is literally a dying breed. It’s not the future.

EDIT: It seems the attendance figures for the Sturgis rally are very likely exaggerated, seeing how they’re based on the number of vehicle crossings at a dozen or so roads in the area, and that most attendees make those crossings multiple times.

My ex boss, an owner of a BMW sports/touring bike...well don't get him started on the the typical Harley rider. He has toured big chunks of the world on his bike....Africa, Mongolia, SAmerica. He says the typical Harley rider gets on his bike on a Saturday morning rides it down to the local Starbucks where he sits with fellow Harley riders drinking coffee before heading home and parking the bike for another week.

 

[ChiTownScion]

The fashions are far less troubling to me than the attitudes. When I see a Confederate flag flying in Maine -- and I do, often -- I get very very angry.

And clearly, you are not alone.

Racism is not a Maine tradition | Boothbay Register

 

[Harp]

"... and, Chamberlain the unorthodox tactician who ordered the bayonet against the Texans would accord this fact."

The bayonet charge was conducted against the 15th Alabama under the command of William C. Oates.

The War Between the Union and the Confederacy, and Its Lost Opportunities ... - William Calvin Oates - Google Books

First cup of coffee earlier response. Sorry.
Please refer my post #35 Defining Moments in American History