You know you are getting old when:

[Harp]

Should I have read Shakespeare at least one time in my life?

Naturlich, und Hegel, Schopenhauer, und Mann.

 

[Harp]

Kind of you to say so, thank you. Conspiracy theorists annoy me when they claim that Shakespeare didn't write the plays and sonnets. Nobody ever suggests that Chaucer wasn't the author of his work or that great composers like Mendelssohn and others were plagiarists of their day. What is there to be gained? Shakespeare left us a great legacy, just leave it be.

I tell kids to read all of Shakespeare, each and every play, every sonnet. And ponder what he wrote.
Admire the majesty of prose, soundness of reason, abundant beauty of mind, his precision of thought.
Nothing in the Shakespeare canon is amiss, all serve a purpose.

Henry's St Crispin oratory before Agincourt is spellbinding. The witches gathered around bubbling caldron.
Macbeth, Caesar, Hamlet, Romeo Montague & Juliet Capulet. A man's mind conjured all this and more.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You get annoyed watching a documentary about a personality who was a household name when you were young, because all the interviews are prattling on with a very simplistic presentation of stuff you already know, and then you realize that this is because the target audience for the documentary is people who have never heard of the subject before.

This is a big reason why I can't stand most TCM/PBS-type documentaries -- but then, I'm not the audience they're made for.

 

[LizzieMaine]

As for Shakespeare, just the other night I listened to Edward G. Robinson as Petruchio in a 1937 radio version of "Taming Of The Shrew." I loathe that particular play, but hearing Mr. Robinson do it was a genuine delight.

 

[Harp]

As for Shakespeare, just the other night I listened to Edward G. Robinson as Petruchio in a 1937 radio version of "Taming Of The Shrew." I loathe that particular play, but hearing Mr. Robinson do it was a genuine delight.

I favor the Liz Taylor version of Taming Of The Shrew, a truly genuine delight.

Edward G Robinson I always enjoy. The role of Lancy Howard in The Cincinnati Kid he just gutted him,
laid him out and just gutted him. Best stud poker player in the world, absolutely nailed him.
The Cincinnati Kid, like The Taking of Pelham 123 is taut, focused, and boasts a stellar cast.
And Joan Blondell, siren extraordinaire never looked more captivatingly charismatic.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Should I have read Shakespeare at least one time in my life?

Maybe. Clearly part of the Western cannon and of critical importance to civilization. However, I have read several of the plays and seen many performed live and seen a number movie adaptations and Shakespeare has made almost no impact on me at all, so who knows how you will take it? I enjoy some 'classic' literature, especially Victorian era fiction and earlier. But you know you're getting old when you can no longer withstand long narratives, whether they be books or TV series. Can't do them much any more either.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I enjoy Dickens a lot more than I enjoy Shakespeare, but it's important to remember that both were the "popular literature" of their day, not some sort of profound statement on civilization intended purely for the intellectual class, which is unfortunately the way a lot of people view them now. Were they writing today, Shakespeare would be grinding out a Netflix miniseries, and Dickens would be sold in airport bookstands. When you keep that in mind, it actually enhances the experience of reading/watching them today.

I once saw a childrens-theatre production of "Richard III," because why not?

 

[Harp]

I enjoy Dickens a lot more than I enjoy Shakespeare, but it's important to remember that both were the "popular literature" of their day, not some sort of profound statement on civilization intended purely for the intellectual class, which is unfortunately the way a lot of people view them now.

The Western canon historical evolve is a tale told from experience rather than logic as Holmes might expound,
a cumulative account of life and death recorded for posterity and subsequently put to exactitude measure,
but subject to contemporary reason when writ or spoken. That Shakespeare has stood strong through
the centuries attest not just his unique gift but consummate timeless truth.
Truth is neither a singular sole possession of any caste or class, but a gift bestowed through love
of wisdom and innate human quest for the divine.

 

[Tiki Tom]

A few years back, I was thrilled by my daughter's choice of university because it was mandatory that all freshmen take a year long course (Humanities 110 or something like that) that intensively covered the Western Canon from Gilgamesh through Homer through Dante and Shakespeare and Cervantes and all-those-guys (and they were "guys") right up to Samuel Johnson. Hers was one of the last years to take that class because it was recently axed because... oh, you already know why. I can honestly see both sides of the argument. Nonetheless, I was happy that Thing-One got to take the course. I of course encourage her to expand her reading to cover all cultures and views, but I think that course was valuable in its own right; not only for its inherent value but also because you hear the names so often that it's good to know what people are referring to. They used to call that cultural literacy. Anyway. I best shut up ---not out of fear of getting cancelled--- but because I'm clearly showing my age! (You know you are getting old when you think all young people should have at least a cursory knowledge of, what used to be called, "the classics".)

 

[tonyb]

I gotta think that part of the resistance to “the Western canon,” aka “dead white men,” is that for so long so many who promoted it gave the impression to us unscrubbed types that they were looking down their noses at us.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Dr. Eliot sold a lot of Five Foot Shelves of Books a hundred years ago playing to just that sort of manufactured cultural insecurity.

 

[tonyb]

I’m acquainted with an illiterate fellow who had been under the impression that literate people had read everything there was to read — “all the books,” is how he put it.

I trust y’all have some familiarity with the concept of “internalized” racism or sexism or whatever-ism — how people in whatever “lower” category accept, perhaps unconsciously, the dominant group’s view of them.

I often wonder, when I hear assertions of “pride,” if the speaker is mostly trying to convince him- or herself, and just how unrealistically elevated their view of the dominant group is.

No, Mike, no one has read all the books. And many quite well educated people couldn’t function for five minutes in your world.

 

[Seb Lucas]

The Western canon historical evolve is a tale told from experience rather than logic as Holmes might expound,
a cumulative account of life and death recorded for posterity and subsequently put to exactitude measure,
but subject to contemporary reason when writ or spoken. That Shakespeare has stood strong through
the centuries attest not just his unique gift but consummate timeless truth.
Truth is neither a singular sole possession of any caste or class, but a gift bestowed through love
of wisdom and innate human quest for the divine.

A bit flowery for my taste but that's the common view about S, and all classics, really, that they endure because they are rich in enduring themes and can be readily reimagined by subsequent generations. There's some truth to that romantic view. I suspect the same thing can be said about Star Wars (which I hate) and who knows, Lucas' cod mythology may become the literary lingua franca for future generations.

Works also last because, amongst other things, vested interest groups like academics keep them alive. I've always found it curious that Tolstoy hated Shakespeare, finding his work bloated, insignificant and shrill. I've often found myself thinking this about Tolstoy. George Orwell wrote a fine essay on this subject.

 

[Harp]

A bit flowery for my taste but that's the common view about S, and all classics, really, that they endure because they are rich in enduring themes and can be readily reimagined by subsequent generations. There's some truth to that romantic view.

Works also last because, amongst other things, vested interest groups like academics keep them alive. I've always found it curious that Tolstoy hated Shakespeare, finding his work bloated, insignificant and shrill. I've often found myself thinking this about Tolstoy. George Orwell wrote a fine essay on this subject.

There is more than merely some truth in that view as veracity exacts punishing measure through time's glass.
The canon endures by truth, and truth lives by historic attest, not vested interest. Academics may keep
themselves alive by publishing, gaining tenure, attending to the scholarly lamp but the works stand on
their own merit. Tolstoy hated Shakespeare; James hated Tolstoy. Wilde hated Elizabeth Barrett Browning.,
whom Poe dedicated his Raven; James also hated Wilde. Wilde, I suspect, probably hated himself.
Envy is a cancerous plague among scholars and scribes, as is intolerance borne by insecurity.

 

[Harp]

A few years back, I was thrilled by my daughter's choice of university because it was mandatory that all freshmen take a year long course (Humanities 110 or something like that) that intensively covered the Western Canon from Gilgamesh through Homer through Dante and Shakespeare and Cervantes and all-those-guys (and they were "guys") right up to Samuel Johnson. Hers was one of the last years to take that class because it was recently axed because... oh, you already know why. I can honestly see both sides of the argument.

Back in reckless youth, I met a very lovely Russian lady from St Petersburg to whom I addressed a few
lines of Pushkin upon our introduction. This took her aback somewhat, not her American expectation,
and she asked how I knew Pushkin. When I replied university, she smiled and invited me to dinner
that evening. Breakfast included. Russian men were such bores, "Culture idiots."
Nothing like a split of champagne and Pushkin in bed.

And the general consensus is that a liberal curricula doesn't pay dividends.

 

[Seb Lucas]

There is more than merely some truth in that view as veracity exacts punishing measure through time's glass.
The canon endures by truth, and truth lives by historic attest, not vested interest. Academics may keep
themselves alive by publishing, gaining tenure, attending to the scholarly lamp but the works stand on
their own merit. Tolstoy hated Shakespeare; James hated Tolstoy. Wilde hated Elizabeth Barrett Browning.,
whom Poe dedicated his Raven; James also hated Wilde. Wilde, I suspect, probably hated himself.
Envy is a cancerous plague among scholars and scribes, as is intolerance borne by insecurity.

Not sure the 'scholarly lamp' sheds much light these days, but this variety of traditionalist opinion is fair enough. As to the epistemological foundations of 'truth' when it comes to enduring literature, you're a braver man than I Gunga Harp. On the matter of hating, no one hates like writers but I venture self-hatred is a prominent force that engenders many novels and much creativity, and I also suspect that Wilde had a junior capacity for this next to Tolstoy or James. But it depends on the biography you read and on your biases.

 

[Trenchfriend]

Remember these disgusting foam material cushions for your toilet seat? I remember, they were big thing in the 90s. Baaah!!

 

[Harp]

Not sure the 'scholarly lamp' sheds much light these days, and I also suspect that Wilde had a junior capacity for this next to Tolstoy or James.

As to the lamp, flickering flames kindle eternal hope and promise against darkness.

Wilde I find more interesting than either Tolstoy or James-the latter having little regard for Whitman;
while the Irishman's purgatorial must have seared his soul. Aside from temporal trial his last hour
conversion to Catholicism evidences his personal triumph over adversity.
Now, I hasten to add that I suddenly remind myself that Wilde had a low regard for Whitman....

 

[Seb Lucas]

As to the lamp, flickering flames kindle eternal hope and promise against darkness.

Wilde I find more interesting than either Tolstoy or James-the latter having little regard for Whitman;
while the Irishman's purgatorial must have seared his soul. Aside from temporal trial his last hour
conversion to Catholicism evidences his personal triumph over adversity.
Now, I hasten to add that I suddenly remind myself that Wilde had a low regard for Whitman....

And we mustn't forget Shaw had a virulent hated for William S too, calling the cult of Shakespeare, Bardoltary.

Wilde is certainly an appealing Victorian celebrity and used language delightfully, but I can probably live without his work (I prefer Huysman's Against Nature). Deathbed conversions are far from compelling. I am reminded of the palliative care director I worked with who told of all the clergymen and priests he'd known who renounced their faith as they died. Dying, like most human activities, generates a multiplicity of equivocal responses.

You know you're getting old when you realize it's been twenty-five years since you read your favorite novel. Can it still be called a favorite after such an absence?

 

[Zombie_61]

...You know you're getting old when you realize it's been twenty-five years since you read your favorite novel. Can it still be called a favorite after such an absence?

If you haven't found a novel in the interim that you like more, yes. "Favorite" is a measure of appeal, not time.