You can’t judge a book by looking at the cover…

[Guppy]

I am intrigued by the new model from ELMC. I'd like to see one in person, try it on, and maybe buy it. I feel the same way about the Freewheelers Mulholland. They're similar looking enough, but not the same. If I owned both, I'd certainly pick the one that fit better.

I think it's ridiculous to compare the two on the basis of a couple of photos. Even two examples of the same jacket can differ in subtle, yet substantial ways, just based on the natural differences in the leather, and variations in how they measured and differences of a fraction of an inch can make all the difference.

Hell, even the same jacket can look very different depending just on how it's photographed.

You can have an opinion, and you can like what you like. I'm just glad there's options.

 

[Ernest P Shackleton]

 

[58panheadfan]

Of course, a lot is in everyone's mind and even the most expensive is not always the best, it is often driven by the market and demand. Nevertheless, there are also significant differences in quality. It just makes a difference if a T-shirt is made e.g. by Zimbabwe Cotton. I am with you it is everyone's own thing to decide whether quality/price ratio is right or not ...

 

[58panheadfan]

I am intrigued by the new model from ELMC. I'd like to see one in person, try it on, and maybe buy it. I feel the same way about the Freewheelers Mulholland. They're similar looking enough, but not the same. If I owned both, I'd certainly pick the one that fit better...

Of course, the main point of a quality leather jacket is the fit, not only to know the "best" leather on the market has been used and the fit is shit ...

 

[red devil]

The concept is pretty simple really: sometimes a higher price is due to materials and labour, sometimes due to the brand value or the seller trying to get away with as high price as he can sell his wares.

Figuring what is worth what in actuality is much harder.

In this case, it is pretty evident that the FW jacket costs more to produce but which company is making better margins? No idea

 

[58panheadfan]

Basically, it should be noted that in this niche market, the really large* margins fail. A big difference between the Japanese and the Western mentality is in Japan, the satisfaction of the customer comes before the actual profit. Of course a company like FW wants to be profitable, but not at any price ...

* The profit margin in this niche market is about 50% gross, not to compare with, for example RL where making $ 3 for a polo shirt and the selling price where I come from is $ 169

 

[nick123]

I'm not so sure. While the not judging a book by its cover certainly applies to people and Bo Diddly was onto something, I think, having owned jackets by nearly all of the prime makers (sans many of the Japanese guys we are speaking of), if you've owned a few, in combination with hours of study, internet pictures DO in fact reveal a lot about the jacket's quality. Also, taking into account a maker's reputation, and even something as simple as looking at product descriptions, or whether or not a company's personnel are passionate about what they do and don't give you the run around.

So far, I think it's an exceptionally rare occurrence to order something seemingly cheap and instead being blown away by its quality on arrival. Likewise, ordering something seemingly of exemplary quality rarely produces a dud (though this may be more common with failing zippers, missed stitches, etc etc).

What the not judging a book really applies to, IMO, is leather samples.

 

[Lebowski]

 

[Monitor]

To clarify, what I meant by it all being in the mind is that you will buy a jacket that you like. If I liked FC more than ELMC, I'd never buy an ELMC just because someone says it's "better", without providing any evidence for the claim.

Or at least I hope you will?

 

[58panheadfan]

I'm not so sure...., if you've owned a few, in combination with hours of study, internet pictures DO in fact reveal a lot about the jacket's quality. Also, taking into account a maker's reputation, and even something as simple as looking at product descriptions, or whether or not a company's personnel are passionate about what they do and don't give you the run around.

As the title says, the main thing is the cover ... I chosen this title because the two mentioned leather jackets look very similar externally, but they differ significantly in "content". If you now deal with hours of study as you mentioned and look around the internet, product descriptions etc., you are already dealing with the content and not with the cover

 

[58panheadfan]

To clarify, what I meant by it all being in the mind is that you will buy a jacket that you like. If I liked FC more than ELMC, I'd never buy an ELMC just because someone says it's "better", without providing any evidence for the claim.

Or at least I hope you will?

If someone isn't label-mad, the answer should be a clearly "no"

 

[red devil]

* The profit margin in this niche market is about 50% gross, not to compare with, for example RL where making $ 3 for a polo shirt and the selling price where I come from is $ 169

Pretty much the reason I avoid fashion brands as much as possible

 

[58panheadfan]

Me too... strictly.

 

[Lebowski]

Haven't got the point of this thread.
Mulholland is nice? Yep, very nice.
Highway Star is nice? I think, yes, it looks nice too.
Do they both look quite similar? Apparently, 'cause both are inspired by CHP from 40s.
Leathers are very different though, but still both look very nice.
I like both.
So, what's supposed to be "judged" over here? Seems pointless TBH.

 

[58panheadfan]

Haven't got the point of this thread.
Mulholland is nice? Yep, very nice.
Highway Star is nice? I think, yes, it looks nice too.
Do they both look quite similar? Apparently, 'cause both are inspired by CHP from 40s.
Leathers are very different though, but still both look very nice.
I like both.
So, what's supposed to be "judged" over here? Seems pointless TBH.

Life is not always easy, but you have got it ... it's all about the leather.

 

[Monitor]

Unrelated, I don't know when was it that they started putting pictures on novel covers but it's one of the dumbest idea mankind has come up with.

 

[ProteinNerd]

Yeah I'm still confused.

Both share the same (or very similar) inspiration to the look.
Both are made to a very high quality
Both are made with very nice leather
Both cost a significant amount of money with the ELMC being about 30% less from what I can find.

While some might say the FW uses "better" leather, how is that even measured? Does Shinki HH provide a better wearing experience somehow? Protect you from the elements better?
I have both types of leather and like them both but when I'm wearing them, I can't really tell the difference.
You could argue the ELMC is better as it represents better value for money?

At these levels I believe its purely subjective and the price is more driven by marketing and positioning in the marketplace than cost of production.

Both look great, I'm sure anyone would be happy with either.....at these levels, its an emotional purchase. Buy the one that makes you happy, not because you think its "better".

 

[Monitor]

Yeah I'm still confused.

Both share the same (or very similar) inspiration to the look.
Both are made to a very high quality
Both are made with very nice leather
Both cost a significant amount of money with the ELMC being about 30% less from what I can find.

While some might say the FW uses "better" leather, how is that even measured? Does Shinki HH provide a better wearing experience somehow? Protect you from the elements better?
I have both types of leather and like them both but when I'm wearing them, I can't really tell the difference.
You could argue the ELMC is better as it represents better value for money?

At these levels I believe its purely subjective and the price is more driven by marketing and positioning in the marketplace than cost of production.

Both look great, I'm sure anyone would be happy with either.....at these levels, its an emotional purchase. Buy the one that makes you happy, not because you think its "better".

^ This ^

 

[Seb Lucas]

It's threads like this that get me thinking that leather jackets and brand loyalty can be taken way too seriously.

I'm still feeling slightly dumb for spending over $1000 on an Aero half-belt - which is a lovely thing but is not giving me any more pleasure, to be honest, than a $140 used Brooks.

There is a type of collecting of consumer goods that transcends the item itself and settles into a type of fetishism or coveting of brand and manufacturing that seems like a parody.

 

[58panheadfan]

Yeah I'm still confused.
... While some might say the FW uses "better" leather, how is that even measured? Does Shinki HH provide a better wearing experience somehow? Protect you from the elements better? I have both types of leather and like them both but when I'm wearing them, I can't really tell the difference. You could argue the ELMC is better as it represents better value for money?

At these levels I believe its purely subjective and the price is more driven by marketing and positioning in the marketplace than cost of production.

Both look great, I'm sure anyone would be happy with either.....at these levels, its an emotional purchase. Buy the one that makes you happy, not because you think its "better".

It is not the question of what is "better" but rather how the extra cost justified and I tried to explain it in the other thread: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/new-elmc-jacket-highway-star-horsehide.97637/

There is a good reason why the jackets from FW as well as from RMC and FW cost considerably more than hh jackets from other manufacturers. One of the mainly reason: the costs of the leather in the tanning process... in simple words, the Italian leather need weeks, those of shinki months in the tanning bark and as known: "time is money". Therefore the raw leathers used by FW and other premium industrial consumers in Japan are "ferraris". Of course it is everyone's own taste if you like one in red, blue, yellow etc. (means finish on each jacket made by each manufacturer differently, e.g. cut, color, top coat finish, lining, hardware, stitchwork-equipment and more), but a ferrari remains a ferrari... also there is a reason why aluminum body types fetches $$$ prices inside the ferrari family. There is nothing like a good base...

Edit: If I remember correctly, David Himel has tried to explain this fact some time ago too and fall on deaf ears... (with some people).