WWII: What was the big deal?

[DavidVillaJr]

There's an easy reading book available at Barnes and Noble titled:

An Incomplete History of World War II

There's lots of stories in it that covered aspects of the war I had not known about, or thought about for a long time.

Radar, Enigma, Japan's invasion of China, "Go for Broke", "NUTS", Bataan Death March, Atomic bomb, ANZAC, Stalingrad, Warsaw Ghetto, etc.

check it out

dv

ps - There is also An Incomplete History of World War I as well...

 

[Smithy]

Planners knew the significance of radar but the pinpoint bombing of the thin, skeketal towers was no easy task.

Sorry Twitch but this is incorrect.

As I mentioned in my previous post to Naphtali, Luftwaffe planners did not know the significance of the CH and CHL structures along England's coast line and certainly not before the main planning of Adlerangriff. The commonly held belief within the Luftwaffe and especially held by the Chief of Luftwaffe Signals, General Martini was that the structures were primarily used for the detection of shipping. As a result they were only cursorily included in raid planning (for example out of all the daylight raids executed between the 12th and 18th of August only 4 had RDF stations as their primary target, another raid on the 12th had an RDF station (Dover) as an alternate target if weather over the primary target was poor).

And it was Hitler who personally changed the bombing directives when a bomber accidently bombed civilians around Coventry.

Sorry Twitch this is also erroneous. The raid which actually changed the bombing focus was on the night of the 24/25 August when London was accidentally bombed. This prompted Churchill to order a retaliatory raid on Germany the following night, and subsequently caused the switch of German bombing to cities and London in particular.

 

[dhermann1]

A couple of points

Re: Fighting the Russians in 1945. I totally agree that it would have been difficult to convince American GIs that our erstwhile friends, the Russians, were now our enemies, but the British in Greece were able to realize the threat the Communust guerillas were posing in late 1944. They were able to shut down the leftist insurgency very quickly. So maybe after a few months more of ugly confrontations, American opininon night have changed. The policy from early on was to stand back and let the Russians into Berlin. Churchill pleaded for greater resistance to Russian plans, but to no avail.
It's interesting to speculate what would have happened if he had been listened to more.
re: British radar. At what point were the microwave transmitters deployed? The towers were used for the long wave length radar, but the development of microwaves revolutionized the technology. Also, the British early warning system was far more than radar. Dowding had developed a highly sophisticated system of tracking and reporting. If a telephobne line went down, someone immediately hopped on a bike to convey the information. There were sight and sound observation posts that were integral to the system as well.
One other point I'd like to make in this conversation is the fact that one of the overriding results of WW II was the Cold War, and the balance of terror, aka the Nuclear Umbrella. We'd lived for 63 years now with Mutually Assured Destruction just a heart beat away. We sometimes forget this. The Russians still have thousands of warhead pointing at us. (And vise versa.)

 

[Smithy]

re: British radar. At what point were the microwave transmitters deployed? The towers were used for the long wave length radar, but the development of microwaves revolutionized the technology. Also, the British early warning system was far more than radar. Dowding had developed a highly sophisticated system of tracking and reporting. If a telephobne line went down, someone immediately hopped on a bike to convey the information. There were sight and sound observation posts that were integral to the system as well.

The first CH station appeared in Ordfordness in March 1936 and by the time of the Home Defence Exercise in the summer of 1939 the whole system was operating effectively. The sophistication of the RAF system was the sector control system of utilising and assessing information which was being received from the RDF stations (Chain Home and Chain Home Low) and the Observer Corps, and then the command and control structure which was used so effectively by the RAF during the Battle. This allowed sector controllers, basically the marshalls of the Battle to have an effective overview of the situation unfolding during raids and to be able to effectively deploy, vector, orbit and patrol the squadrons under their sector control. Although it must be said there were problems which arose during the initial phases of the Battle but which were improved as the Battle progressed through practice and technical improvements.

 

[Story]

but the British in Greece were able to realize the threat the Communust guerillas were posing in late 1944. They were able to shut down the leftist insurgency very quickly.

Huh? That fight went on til 1949.
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/golf/greece1944.htm

 

[dhermann1]

Sorry, you're right. The Brits were able to stabilize the area around Athens in December 1944 when Churchill flew there personally on Christmas eve. The point I was making was just that the Communists were busy all over Eastern Europe before the war was even over, and it was not inconceivable that under a different set of circumstances American opinion could have been swayed to opposing this in 1945 instead of a couple of years later.
The idea of a confontation between us and the Soviets in 1945 is dreadful to contemplate, but interesting. I'm just reaching the last pages of Churchill's 6 volume history, and the issue is looming very large at the moment.

 

[KL15]

Anyone ever wondered why we don't have a room or thread about WWI? Is that too old for the "golden era?"

 

[dhermann1]

I think the idea of the "Golden Age" is basically the between the wars period, or, if you want to stretch it a little, the 1920 to 1960 period. Or if you really want to stretch it, Nov. 12th, 1918 maybe up to Nov 21, 1963.
There are plenty of Loungers who are into Victorian or Edwardian stuff, but I think the consensus is that WW II sort of epitomizes a lot of the stylistic stuff we tend to dig.
Personally, I find WW I just to darned depressing and sad to look at too much. As ugly as WW II was, it didn't have that feeling of utter futility that the characterized the First War.
By the same token, I think that wearing styles from the 20's thru the 60's can be fairly easy and practical in this day and age, whereas clothes from further back get a lot more impractical.

 

[carebear]

British planning documents for a "what if" continuation versus the Russians. Interesting in that it was very secret and didn't include even their entire War Department. I fact, it contains numerous references to "assuming the US forces do this..." until the end.

The planners were also in ignorance about the existance of the Bomb.

I am not guaranteeing its authenticity but I have no reason to believe it isn't real.

"Operation: Unthinkable"

http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/

 

[Story]

Anyone ever wondered why we don't have a room or thread about WWI? Is that too old for the "golden era?"

I usually dump WWI items of interest in this room, since the events of WWI would have telling influence on the adults of the early Golden Era (and begot much of the stagework for WWII, in Old Testament speak).

 

[Alan Eardley]

Before the outbreak of hostilities German radar and guidance systems were in advance of those used by the British. The way the British scientists and intelligence forces caught up with and passed them is summarised nicely and succinctly in 'The Bruneval Raid: Stealing Hitler's Radar' by George Millar. It is less well known that the Germans carried out a similar Commando operation to capture a British radar device on the Isle of Wight a few months later. This was denied at the time, although there is convincing evidence that funerals took place of some of the guards killed in the action.

Alan

The first CH station appeared in Ordfordness in March 1936 and by the time of the Home Defence Exercise in the summer of 1939 the whole system was operating effectively. The sophistication of the RAF system was the sector control system of utilising and assessing information which was being received from the RDF stations (Chain Home and Chain Home Low) and the Observer Corps, and then the command and control structure which was used so effectively by the RAF during the Battle. This allowed sector controllers, basically the marshalls of the Battle to have an effective overview of the situation unfolding during raids and to be able to effectively deploy, vector, orbit and patrol the squadrons under their sector control. Although it must be said there were problems which arose during the initial phases of the Battle but which were improved as the Battle progressed through practice and technical improvements.

 

[Smithy]

Before the outbreak of hostilities German radar and guidance systems were in advance of those used by the British. The way the British scientists and intelligence forces caught up with and passed them

Actually it is incredible how quickly Robert Watson-Watt and his team were able to develop a workable radar system to protect Britain. The German "Freya" radar network at the time of the Battle of Britain was technologically of a similar level, however it lacked a control and reporting system of anywhere near the sophistication of the RAF system. The Germans having to pass information onto fighters by radio from listening posts.

RDF and the ability to largely keep the true nature of it a mystery to the Germans was without doubt a vital factor in Britain's survival.

 

[KL15]

I think the idea of the "Golden Age" is basically the between the wars period, or, if you want to stretch it a little, the 1920 to 1960 period. Or if you really want to stretch it, Nov. 12th, 1918 maybe up to Nov 21, 1963.
There are plenty of Loungers who are into Victorian or Edwardian stuff, but I think the consensus is that WW II sort of epitomizes a lot of the stylistic stuff we tend to dig.
Personally, I find WW I just to darned depressing and sad to look at too much. As ugly as WW II was, it didn't have that feeling of utter futility that the characterized the First War.
By the same token, I think that wearing styles from the 20's thru the 60's can be fairly easy and practical in this day and age, whereas clothes from further back get a lot more impractical.

Fair enough.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Actually it is incredible how quickly Robert Watson-Watt and his team were able to develop a workable radar system to protect Britain.

Yes. I use some of the processes and techniques (e.g. Sunday Soviets) developed at TRE as a case study in teaching Knowledge Management and Organisational Learning to graduate students.


Alan

 

[Twitch]

Smithy- of course the Germans knew the structures were for a defensive purpose as was everything erected an the coast. Since German radar was in it's infancy Luftwaffe pilots made no connection having never seen their own.

And I have been told that an skeletal tower is a very hard target mostly due to the fact that all your bomb's shrapnel has amost nothing to hit. Even if one leg were hit it wouldn't mean the tower would topple. And because they were placed in multiple arrangments there was another very close so one would not leave a big hole in loss of coverage.


That's what I said except for Covenrty it was a lost German bomber that dumped its bombs on a London civil target which prompted a tit for tat with the RAF dropping a few on Berlin and the civilian target war was on, as such. Hitler directed Goring to attack London on Sept 7th. He did so at night with 350 bombers and 650 other aircraft.

 

[Smithy]

Smithy- of course the Germans knew the structures were for a defensive purpose as was everything erected an the coast.

Sorry Twitch but I still must disagree with you. If Luftwaffe planners did understand the "significance" of the RDF structures (as you stated in an earlier post) then they would have tasked more raids with these targets. Instead raids on RDF structures were only undertaken on the 12th, 16th and 18th of August. If the Luftwaffe really were convinced of the defensive purpose of the CH and CHL, then they would have been far more determined to knock them out.

 

[Joie DeVive]

Wow, so many good thoughts on this topic. Most of the folks here know way more about the subject than I.

Being a teacher, I would encourage you to resist that laundry list mentality as much as possible. Yes, there is too much to teach in too little time. However, there are people who devote their lives to studying just WW2. It isn't a problem with you, but with the task. It is almost impossible to do in depth work on all the important topics in a week or two. You may have to settle for more of an overview than you would like, but try to teach some of the key points in depth. Personally, I think that the causes and impact are often somewhat neglected in the teaching.

And if I had to pick one special event, I would find a Holocaust survivor to speak. There are so few of them left, and the Holocaust is falling out of favor as a topic of study in many circles. This may be your students only chance to hear an account firsthand. Your students will never forget what they hear. I know I never have. If you need some guidance on the subject, you could try contacting the Center for the Study of the Holocaust at Sonoma State University. http://www.sonoma.edu/holocaust/intro.htm

 

[Mike K.]

Corto, is all this talk actually helping you develop ideas for your lesson plans?

 

[NoirDame]

Personally, I think that the causes and impact are often somewhat neglected in the teaching.

http://www.sonoma.edu/holocaust/intro.htm

Very good point. Honestly, I think one of the best ways I was served with regards to the course I took in WW2 was walking away with a real in-depth understanding of WHY things happened and WHY the war started and the consequences. To me, understanding what happened is more important than exactly when and too many teachers of mine have been too bogged down by exact dates.

 

[Smithy]

Corto, is all this talk actually helping you develop ideas for your lesson plans?

Probably not!

Most likely he got all the ideas he needed in the first couple of pages or so