Wise words to live by (jacket related)

[navetsea]

There are a few actual men's fashion channels I've seen on YT. People with their own styles, who dress for themselves and nobody else, and who use the tools of fashion (e.g. cut, silhouette, fabric, colour, texture) to build their looks. But not many.

Most of what I see in 'men's fashion' is awful, and will turn you into a basic ba***rd, whose goal, far as I can tell, is to make you as bland and inoffensive as possible. This is a particular issue when it's women doing the styling. They almost always turn men into presentably boring. There are a few exceptions, Ilaria Urbinati for example, I'm just talking about the rule.

Once I figured out what I actually liked, I got rid of almost all influencers and never looked back. Now I buy for me.

yes,

most of the male style gurus are teaching men to dress to impress a woman, or to look sexy, or to look rich... how shallow can you be I thought

most female stylist are wives, and they teach men how to dress to be invisible to other women, they will teach men not to wear leather jacket, but wear suede bomber, or cardigan instead, and to avoid strong color but use neutral tones instead, to not wear jeans but wear chinos instead, their sole goal is to make you look as boring as possible and to be a decent looking room decoration

 

[handymike]

I believe what @navetsea means is that a woman prefers the attention to be on her. If all eyes in the room are on you, she gets jealous or insecure. Therefore she will always want her +1 muted down and complimentary.

 

[MrProper]

yes,

most of the male style gurus are teaching men to dress to impress a woman, or to look sexy, or to look rich... how shallow can you be I thought

most female stylist are wives, and they teach men how to dress to be invisible to other women, they will teach men not to wear leather jacket, but wear suede bomber, or cardigan instead, and to avoid strong color but use neutral tones instead, to not wear jeans but wear chinos instead, their sole goal is to make you look as boring as possible and to be a decent looking room decoration

I believe what @navetsea means is that a woman prefers the attention to be on her. If all eyes in the room are on you, she gets jealous or insecure. Therefore she will always want her +1 muted down and complimentary.

Phew, now we're reaching deep into the prejudices drawer.
I don't know about you, but in my environment, women don't want their men to be "invisible", nor do they get jealous or insecure because their man stands out. And I'm really happy about that.
Mine wouldn't even think of telling me what to wear.

 

[Monitor]

I believe what @navetsea means is that a woman prefers the attention to be on her. If all eyes in the room are on you, she gets jealous or insecure. Therefore she will always want her +1 muted down and complimentary.

Yeah, I never met anyone like that, either. Women, same as men, want to show their partners off.

 

[handymike]

You guys lucked out!

 

[_Wayfarer_]

I kind of disagree. Sort of. The boringness of the recommendations for men's fashion is very evident. There's even people arguing that those sorts of clothes make men seem more responsible, mature, and trustworthy. To me it's nonsense.

As far as the predjudice goes, I have heard it said before that women don't want to compete with their men for attention. I don't know if this is true or not because I only wear what I like and what is my style. I bet you guys are the same. This is advice I would give people--find what you like and don't let other people decide it for you.

I do think there's some latent prejudice that men need help and that women are better at fashion.

 

[Monte.C]

yes,

most of the male style gurus are teaching men to dress to impress a woman, or to look sexy, or to look rich...

I would have to say that's the goal of men's fashion. To carve your place in the hierarchy. To impress the women and to impress the other men. To have impact and influence and even to suggest dominance. Sure, we'll say it's to impress ourselves - as a personal expression - but that idea isn't at all in conflict with the above. One of the primary connecting threads with my love of wristwatches and leather jackets and fairly heavy boots is that they're all strongly masculine things. I enjoy that. I can get away with it. If I can be the VERY masculine guy standing on the train, then I will. I find it to be a lot of fun. Call it self-expression if you want to.

For women, yes, they dress to attract a mate. And to impress each other. (Hierarchy.)
Break it down to simplest terms and this is what you find.

Consider the "last man on earth" scenario. You'd wear just sweats. Or combat fatigues for their prolifery of pockets.

 

[_Wayfarer_]

I would have to say that's the goal of men's fashion. To carve your place in the hierarchy. To impress the women and to impress the other men. To have impact and influence and even to suggest dominance. Sure, we'll say it's to impress ourselves - as a personal expression - but that idea isn't at all in conflict with the above. One of the primary connecting threads with my love of wristwatches and leather jackets and fairly heavy boots is that they're all strongly masculine things. I enjoy that. I can get away with it. If I can be the VERY masculine guy standing on the train, then I will. I find it to be a lot of fun. Call it self-expression if you want to.

For women, yes, they dress to attract a mate. And to impress each other. (Hierarchy.)
Break it down to simplest terms and this is what you find.

Consider the "last man on earth" scenario. You'd wear just sweats. Or combat fatigues for their prolifery of pockets.

When I was in college, I did the whole minimalist/Zuckerberg thing of a black t-shirt and jeans, every day. When I got a career job (in tech), I started having money for things I was interested in. I too got into watches, and I was never not into leather. I started trying to invest in clothes too, and retro sneakers. I went through the basic ba***rd phase of recommended items. I hated most of them--you will never see me wear a OCBD, for example. The thing that I did was to experiment with things, keep what I found I actually loved, and get rid of what I didn't. Combine that with some education on the elements of fashion, and I was able to curate a style that is all me.

None of it had anything to do with looking masculine, though I am in agreement with you that the things I like are strongly masculine. The difference is I never cared about hierarchy or dominance. I never cared at all about anyone other than my own opinions. My own view of masculinity, and I think the key to it, is that only the masculine defines itself--it's not a conversation or a negotiation. That's for the feminine. If I liked cardigans, I'd wear them and feel masculine enough, no problem. I just don't like them.

Funny you should also mention women, and who they dress for. My experience as a married man is that women dress for other women, almost exclusively. My wife will ask my opinion on her outfits, usually when she is uncertain whether it works. But I would be very happy for her to go out in t-shirts and jeans, I think she looks good that way and she has great jackets. She does it a lot more often now, but she didn't used to. I told her then that she could just go casual with me and it would be great. She acknowledged it--but confided that the thing she cared about was being judged by other women. That dovetails nicely with how good women are at following trends.

BTW it's worth saying that I'm speaking in generalities. By no means do I think these things apply to all people, and my own orientation is individual--that's how I see people. I'm only remarking on the regular/average things I notice.

NB: if you're doing your combat gear correctly you don't need all those pockets. You have a dedicated place on your kit for everything you carry.

Thank you for reading my wall of text. I shall step down off my soapbox now.

 

[Monte.C]

When I was in college, I did the whole minimalist/Zuckerberg thing of a black t-shirt and jeans, every day. When I got a career job (in tech), I started having money for things I was interested in. I too got into watches, and I was never not into leather. I started trying to invest in clothes too, and retro sneakers. I went through the basic ba***rd phase of recommended items. I hated most of them--you will never see me wear a OCBD, for example. The thing that I did was to experiment with things, keep what I found I actually loved, and get rid of what I didn't. Combine that with some education on the elements of fashion, and I was able to curate a style that is all me.

None of it had anything to do with looking masculine, though I am in agreement with you that the things I like are strongly masculine. The difference is I never cared about hierarchy or dominance. I never cared at all about anyone other than my own opinions. My own view of masculinity, and I think the key to it, is that only the masculine defines itself--it's not a conversation or a negotiation. That's for the feminine. If I liked cardigans, I'd wear them and feel masculine enough, no problem. I just don't like them.

Funny you should also mention women, and who they dress for. My experience as a married man is that women dress for other women, almost exclusively. My wife will ask my opinion on her outfits, usually when she is uncertain whether it works. But I would be very happy for her to go out in t-shirts and jeans, I think she looks good that way and she has great jackets. She does it a lot more often now, but she didn't used to. I told her then that she could just go casual with me and it would be great. She acknowledged it--but confided that the thing she cared about was being judged by other women. That dovetails nicely with how good women are at following trends.

BTW it's worth saying that I'm speaking in generalities. By no means do I think these things apply to all people, and my own orientation is individual--that's how I see people. I'm only remarking on the regular/average things I notice.

NB: if you're doing your combat gear correctly you don't need all those pockets. You have a dedicated place on your kit for everything you carry.

Thank you for reading my wall of text. I shall step down off my soapbox now.

Thanks a lot for that. Oh I'm with you - I wish a bunch of us could do this over a beer or a coffee.

Some people won't like the sound of this, but I identify very strongly with how they describe sigma males. Maybe a lot of us do. I honestly don't care about a hierarchy in the traditional sense. (I'm imagining certain types of males in the corporate environment.) I make my own rules, follow my own sensibilities, and that does clash with mainstream thinking surprisingly often. I refuses to be part of the mob, no matter what the mob is selling. I find even the idea of making efforts to impress "the masses" seriously distasteful.

I describe these things because I'm living my own version of masculine, my own version of the ideal man, the best I can. It's STILL about a hierarchy, in that performing the way I do naturally puts me very high on the scale according to my view of the world. I can see right through those guys who are trying to be top dog (alphas,) and to me it seems to make me top dog. Funny, our perceptions.

Attracting a mate? My ideal girl recognizes the depth of this man she found. She recognizes this unique set of strengths and values them beyond measure. The way I dress reflects the man I am. YES, we dress to attract a mate.

You mention "the whole minimalist/Zuckerberg thing of a black t-shirt and jeans". In the design world I learned that in many cases through Europe, architects are in the habit of wearing all black. I've always been drawn to the idea, and consider the black items I own as a simple fall-back, no-brainer.

How's that for a wall of text.
Oh - I like jackets. (Just to keep it on topic.)

 

[navetsea]

I would have to say that's the goal of men's fashion. To carve your place in the hierarchy. To impress the women and to impress the other men. To have impact and influence and even to suggest dominance. Sure, we'll say it's to impress ourselves - as a personal expression - but that idea isn't at all in conflict with the above. One of the primary connecting threads with my love of wristwatches and leather jackets and fairly heavy boots is that they're all strongly masculine things. I enjoy that. I can get away with it. If I can be the VERY masculine guy standing on the train, then I will. I find it to be a lot of fun. Call it self-expression if you want to.

For women, yes, they dress to attract a mate. And to impress each other. (Hierarchy.)
Break it down to simplest terms and this is what you find.

Consider the "last man on earth" scenario. You'd wear just sweats. Or combat fatigues for their prolifery of pockets.

hmm, I buy clothes and pick which one to wear simply to see how the pieces work with each other into an outfit, or how I want my clothes to show characters with more wears, or waiting how these pieces will look like once they fade a little so I keep wearing them day by day, I have zero consideration about outside factors, I dress the same when I sit alone at home behind my desk without any impact nor influence to anyone, I typically only need to grab my boots and put on a jacket when I need to go out, my house clothes are typically my latest buy because I want to make them look and feel worn in more before I wear it full

the downside of people who dress to impress others, they feel unhappy if others don't say anything about their outfit that's why they keep saying about compliment magnets, etc. , probably they ask others for opinion about how a jacket look on them is the length proper is the sleeve too short etc. , they feel insecure if others look at them funny, they quickly change into something comfy but ugly like old tshirt and shorts or sweatpants once they arrive at home and nobody is there to impress, they probably stop dressing well once their goal is met like once they marry or find a partner.

I also see some people behave differently when they wear different outfit, like actors donning their movie costumes, that thing looks funny to me when people roleplay their outfits, personally I see leather jacket or blazer or field jacket are just merely options of outerwears

 

[navetsea]

Phew, now we're reaching deep into the prejudices drawer.
I don't know about you, but in my environment, women don't want their men to be "invisible", nor do they get jealous or insecure because their man stands out. And I'm really happy about that.
Mine wouldn't even think of telling me what to wear.

I solely judging from the outfit the female stylist youtuber curated for her husband, earth tone chinos, and matte top with small prints, basically the guy blends in with the cityscape once they are in peripheral vision, I personally don't care if I'm seen or not because I also like camouflage and olive colored stuff, but I also like leather jacket or t-shirt with graphic under my leather jacket or denim jacket because to me they look good together, however I simply look at all the outfits she pick, all of them blends with room decorations and cityscapes, all of them absorb lights they have zero sheen or something that pops, especially when she or they say outfit for men over 40, like men should stop looking cool when they are 40 and presumably married, they should look groomed but muted, that's why so many slogan no leather jacket and no jeans for men over 40 and ones who wrote these articles are mostly female stylists. I don't say every woman do that, but apparently stylist does

 

[barnabus]

hmm, I buy clothes and pick which one to wear simply to see how the pieces work with each other into an outfit, or how I want my clothes to show characters with more wears, or waiting how these pieces will look like once they fade a little so I keep wearing them day by day, I have zero consideration about outside factors, I dress the same when I sit alone at home behind my desk without any impact nor influence to anyone, I typically only need to grab my boots and put on a jacket when I need to go out, my house clothes are typically my latest buy because I want to make them look and feel worn in more before I wear it full

the downside of people who dress to impress others, they feel unhappy if others don't say anything about their outfit that's why they keep saying about compliment magnets, etc. , probably they ask others for opinion about how a jacket look on them is the length proper is the sleeve too short etc. , they feel insecure if others look at them funny, they quickly change into something comfy but ugly like old tshirt and shorts or sweatpants once they arrive at home and nobody is there to impress, they probably stop dressing well once their goal is met like once they marry or find a partner.

I also see some people behave differently when they wear different outfit, like actors donning their movie costumes, that thing looks funny to me when people roleplay their outfits, personally I see leather jacket or blazer or field jacket are just merely options of outerwears

Similarly, I also wear the same clothes whether I'm sitting at home watching TV or out shopping or going to church.

The only reason I wear something different for work is because it has the company's logo on it.

Dressing to elicit opinions from someone else suggests a lack of contentedness to me.

 

[TheDonEffect]

Better to own something you like that everyone hates, than to own something you hate that everyone likes.

 

[red devil]

I think we should remember, that if we are actively participating in this forum, we are part of a small niche of people. A niche of people that have an interest in clothing and want to go beyond the better known brands. Although the motivation to do so can be very different from member to member.

In my case, it is an exploration of ideas and like @navetsea seeing what works with what. I don't care what people think, I just follow my ideas. If you are confortable wearing something, wear it. The more you wear things at the edge of your comfort zone, the more you will stretch it.

 

[Monte.C]

Like people do in lots of online discussions, we can over-analyze this and try to pick it apart, put it under a microscope, come up with loads of secondary reasons and then work hard to justify those reasons in our minds and here in discussion, but I like to strip things down to simplest terms.

- We wear clothing for utility. To protect us from the environment (including the weather and physical threats). To have pockets for mobile storage.
- We select clothing items as a personal choice to convey something of our personality. We select to impress each other with our choices. This does include to attract a mate or to impress the opposite sex.
- Some of us will obsess over clothing as a hobby or as an expanded interest in some aspect of fashion. As above - to "study" how an item will break in over time, etc. This is a hobby.

 

[Monte.C]

as a personal choice to convey something of our personality...

This includes dressing in a manner that says "Yep, I just rolled out of bed in this" or "Wha-eva, I'll wear what I want" or "I don't give a rat's ass what anybody thinks".