Why low armholes? My theory.

[Orgetorix]

Here is Martin Stall's take on the whys and wherefores of large armholes. He's a European bespoke tailor. According to him, placement and positioning of the armscye is as important as its size. If you have a small armhole that isn't positioned right for the wearer's stance, it will bind and feel uncomfortable.

 

[Jovan]

That's sort of what I was going on, except more detailed.

 

[retrofashion]

Outer side of the arm, where the end of your shoulder joint is. If you give some allowance, it is far easier to correct the problem by bringing it in, so err on the slightly larger.

With you, since you are of a large build, I would really recommend having someone that is experienced with the tape to do it.

Thanks a million Charles!
I do have an appointment with a tailor for Tuesday, but as there is a suit ending before that on ebay I wanted to have an idea before. But after Tuesday I should have accurate measures.
Thanks again.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Just to add that the thinner a person is, for a given skeletal formation (stance) the more likely that person is to conform to 'the norm' in terms of the position and shape of the arm hole. Therefore, a 36" 'off the peg' jacket with a small ('correctly positioned') arm hole is more likely to be a better fit than an OTP 46" jacket.

Alan

 

[Feraud]

Here is Martin Stall's take on the whys and wherefores of large armholes. He's a European bespoke tailor. According to him, placement and positioning of the armscye is as important as its size. If you have a small armhole that isn't positioned right for the wearer's stance, it will bind and feel uncomfortable.

Good stuff. Thanks for posting it.

 

[GateXC]

Another theory that I've come across is that it takes much more skill to make/sew/attach a smaller armhole (not as forgiving of mistakes, etc.) so that as standards starting dropping and mass production really took off that it was just easier and cheaper to make larger armholes. Again though, I don't think that there is one smoking gun theory to explain it all.

 

[Orgetorix]

Another theory that I've come across is that it takes much more skill to make/sew/attach a smaller armhole (not as forgiving of mistakes, etc.) so that as standards starting dropping and mass production really took off that it was just easier and cheaper to make larger armholes. Again though, I don't think that there is one smoking gun theory to explain it all.

I don't think it would be more costly to do it per se, but more expensive to do it correctly. As noted above, the sleeve and armhole have to be cut and set in the right position and angle. Also, for a small armhole to be comfortable, the shoulder, sleeve, armhole, and the side of the chest area really ought to be sewn/constructed by hand. Even two coats that fit the same will feel noticeably different if one is machine-made and the other is handsewn. The handsewn one will generally be much more comfortable. And handwork is a lot more costly than machine work.

 

[Forgotten Man]

My take.

The 40’s were the last period of a snugger fitting suit and higher cut armscye. I believe that after the war, since fabric was plentiful once again that the desire to use more then really was needed can be a part of this reason of lower armscye.

It started in the late 40’s then by the 50’s, the cut of a suit became baggier and roomier. Deeper pleats, fuller cut of pants and a roomier fitting coat. They felt then that having a snug form fitting cut was old fashioned and out of date by the 50’s. Although, there were still men having old fashioned tailored suits made to their liking into the 50’s that look very 30’s or 40’s in comparison to the newest fashions.

I believe it started with style, not so much a choice to lower standards seeing that everything was in abundance after the war.

The suit was still being worn into the 60’s by adult males and men of wealth and social standing. By the late 60’s is when the hippy movement outshined the high society. Most men of business still wore suits because it was the standard for most companies. It went well into the 70’s believe it or not. The youthful trends and fashions of the 60’s to 70’s stands out more because of the political and social upheaval of that time.

It really wasn’t until the 21st Century that the suit started to really leave the work force… these days most men don’t wear suits to interviews depending on the City and what job is being applied for. The polo shirt and khakis have taken over the suit and more and more employers are starting to embrace a casual work environment.

FM~

 

[Matt Deckard]

The 40’s were the last period of a snugger fitting suit and higher cut arm’s eyes. I believe that after the war, since fabric was plentiful once again that the desire to use more then really was needed can be a part of this reason of lower arm’s eyes.

I have a couple 60's sportcoats. I think many people here on the Lounge that wear 60's suits, and I myself that has seen in public people wearing 1960's suits can see that the armholes are much higher than the standards of today as well as higher in some cases than many of the cuts from the 1940's including uniforms. My jacket from 1914 is the closest I have to the hight of the fitted 60's styles.

The 70's also have some high armhole cuts though the true disaster for the armhole happened in the 1980's.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I've never encountered a 1960s suit with large armholes. 70s they started creeping in; by the 80s they were ubiquitous.

Somewhat delayed in UK, but similar trend.

The thing that stunned me in the US was that bespoke jackets were being produced with armholes that extended almost to the waist. I was amazed.

bk

 

[Matt Deckard]

You are right about the delay in the UK and in Europe. Of the suits and the tailors, you find pretty high armsholes through the 80's.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

There were some notable holdouts in the US; Geoffrey Beene being one of them. I have 80s US suits of his with very small armholes and very classic cut.

bk

 

[Matt Deckard]

Oxxford did okay as well, though they soon followed the throng.

 

[Forgotten Man]

The armscye drop started when the suits started to get a little baggier... post-war period. Not all examples were this way, only the newest fashions offered were starting to drift in that direction.

The 70's coats I've seen appear to have higher arm's eyes but, are large compared with the 20's to 40's suits. Also it depends on the size of a man's arm... a good deal of the suits in our collections were made to order, so if one seems to have a larger opening at the arm then the other, it could be because the man was larger in that area.

The 80's was defiantly a period where things crept the lowest... armscye and also the waist line hit an all time low!

FM~

 

[GateXC]

I don't think it would be more costly to do it per se, but more expensive to do it correctly. As noted above, the sleeve and armhole have to be cut and set in the right position and angle. Also, for a small armhole to be comfortable, the shoulder, sleeve, armhole, and the side of the chest area really ought to be sewn/constructed by hand. Even two coats that fit the same will feel noticeably different if one is machine-made and the other is handsewn. The handsewn one will generally be much more comfortable. And handwork is a lot more costly than machine work.

Exactly.

The next time I am over at Martin Greenfield I'll ask the guys over there what they think led to the change. They've been around long enough to have experienced it first hand.

 

[Lincsong]

What about to hide perspiration marks?[huh]

 

[Matt Deckard]

Would be good to hear what they say. of the tailors I have spoken with, they tend to have opinions though no answers. Even the london tailors don't have a clear answer other than the same cliche's like people being over weight. That doesn't explain at all why custom tailoring followed suit with lower armholes and why larger men back in the day had suits that fit fine.

Also... I haven't yet found a tailor that can back up the reasoning behind why machine sleavehead attaching requires a larger armhole. Even firms that have been around for decades which do their attachment work just by hand seem to have changed their standards.

Not all suits from the past had high armhole seams, this is known for the simple fact that Fred Astaire and Cary Grant (he was an athlete) specified that they wanted higher armholes to their tailors. Thought the fact that in general armholes became commically low is what befuddles me the most.

 

[Senator Jack]

Seems to me there are an awfully lot of guys of various body types walking around in high-armhole, off-the-peg, vintage suits and are perfectly comfortable in them. Why should they all of a sudden have to be 'perfectly cut' to fit?

 

[Feraud]

What about to hide perspiration marks?[huh]

These little pads could help w/perspiration.

 

[Forgotten Man]

These little pads could help w/perspiration.

Maybe, but, I believe those were placed for adding extra wear to the suit. That is a high friction area and that fabric placed there helped add life to the garment.

FM~