Why low armholes? My theory.

[Jovan]

They wanted to fit more people who had sloping shoulders? It would make sense. I thought about this when I tried on a vintage jacket that was a size too small. My arms were practically suspended up by the shoulder width and snug armholes. Then I thought about the high armhole debate and it clicked for me.

Thoughts?

 

[GBR]

A very sensible and real theory.

Since tailoring went from an art to an industry activity where bulk and saving the last penny or even cent was the golden rule , the fewer variants/greater universality the better - for the bottom line.

 

[Feraud]

They wanted to fit more people who had sloping shoulders? It would make sense.

Where is the proof that more people had sloping shoulders? Anything we say can make sense.
You might as well suggest designers hired incompetent workers or men had larger physiques.
Anything is possible but unless someone provides proof our guess is just that.

I think this is a good question to look in to.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Droopy armpits.

Sloaping shoulders do not a lower armhole need.

The shoulders don't have much to do with how far the seem is from your armpit. The Nape to Scye measurement is the missing measure and it's the triangle from neck to armpit which makes the higher armhole on tailored suits. Shoulders can be big and small or square or sloaped... doesn't change the need for high armholes.

 

[Jovan]

I meant on ready to wear suits, to clarify. Certainly there's no problem since the Duke had his suits tailored. I also didn't say more people had sloping shoulders, I merely meant maybe they started to doing it to fit a broader range of shoulder types? I dunno, this is somewhat hard to explain without making a pictogram. I'll try to sketch up a crude one in M$Paint tomorrow after work... sleepy time soon.

 

[Fletch]

The rationale was CHEEP CHEEP CHEEP.
The selling point was greater comfort...as long as you kept your arms down and at your sides.

 

[retrofashion]

I'm no expert, far from that actually. But I would also think comfort played a bigger role than anything else. Every vintage jacket that I ever tried had me feeling uncomfortable with the high armholes. It just felt extremely tight around my armpits, even digging into my skin. I don't think the high holes work with every type of body. It is sure not working well for me, unless my arms are hanging along side my body.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

retrofashion, i think i recall you once saying you were a bodybuilder? Or at least lifted weights? I can see how this would make small armholes uncomfortable. (the jackets fit well everywhere else, right?) I suspect the only way a man with very large upper arm musculature could ever be comfortable is to go bespoke. Certainly with my well muscled but not large upper arms, the small vintage jacket armholes are perfect.

Vintage will be too small, modern OTR will be far too big (the bat-wing pheomenon). You may, unfortunately, be between a rock and a hard place.

As for original thread theory, i'm a sceptic due to an equal mixture of those points put forth by Matt and Feraud.

bk

 

[retrofashion]

retrofashion, i think i recall you once saying you were a bodybuilder? Or at least lifted weights? I can see how this would make small armholes uncomfortable. (the jackets fit well everywhere else, right?) I suspect the only way a man with very large upper arm musculature could ever be comfortable is to go bespoke. Certainly with my well muscled but not large upper arms, the small vintage jacket armholes are perfect.

Vintage will be too small, modern OTR will be far too big (the bat-wing pheomenon). You may, unfortunately, be between a rock and a hard place.

As for original thread theory, i'm a sceptic due to an equal mixture of those points put forth by Matt and Feraud.

bk

Yes Baron, I'm indeed a bodybuilder, although nowhere near the competition level guys. That's not my aim. I think you are right, bespoke is probably the only way I will get a 100% fit. Unfortunately this is also the most expensive way, and doesn't allow me the possibility of getting a real vintage suit.
Yes normally the jacket fits good everywhere else. Sometimes the shoulders are a bit too tight too. Modern is sure too big if I get something large enough to fit my shoulders, unless it's some sort of athletic cut. It looks like a sack on me. Never looked at it from a "Bat wing" perspective though, but now that you mentioned, yes.

 

[CharlestonBows]

My take...

You had a number of things happen in the mid-century that lead to the suit evolving into the large scye creation that it is nowdays. So it would really be incorrect to point to one 'smoking gun'.

No doubt that among these reasons were the way men are physically, modern vs. 90 years ago. While it might not be that different as to literal proportions, there are some variations. Men are, as a rule, taller, larger and fatter than their predecessors.

Also consider what happened in the history of clothing from about the 1950s to now. The 60s saw tremendous social change, and young people simply did not wear suits. The hat fell by the wayside. Jeans were becoming status quo. Long hair, free love and doing the exact opposite of what anyone over 30 was doing. No one was wearing suits, and fathers taught sons less and less about dressing - a trend that continues today.

Then the 70s happened, and people re-discovered the vested suit. Floppy, proportions that were just wrong, bad cuts, bad production. This is where the poorly cut jacket really came into it's own, so to speak. This decade of bad suits and disco gave way to the uber-fashion orgy of the 80's and Mr. Armani's American Gigolo and all of the massive shoulders, extreme cuts and full-drape designs that came with it. The scye became bigger to match suiting proportions.

Over this evolution, men became used to the different, fuller cut. The suit became less of a uniform, and less of a necessity. Men, in short, simply didn't know better. They became used to wearing sportswear as everyday wear, and they wanted their suits to be more like what they were used to. This is why, even today, most men don't know their true jacket size - the jackets are always a size bigger than they really are, and the trouser waist is "what it was in high school". The jackets are never buttoned, and thats if the jackets are ever on to begin with. So, really, for this type of guy, a lower armhole is more comfortable (not that I am advocating this at all!). A higher armhole is correct - and thusly, only comfortable - when the wearer is correct, which is to say, wearing the jacket properly.

Of course, this is only my own opinion of things.

 

[retrofashion]

A higher armhole is correct - and thusly, only comfortable - when the wearer is correct, which is to say, wearing the jacket properly.

Could you define "wearing the jacket properly"?

 

[CharlestonBows]

Could you define "wearing the jacket properly"?

Basically, wearing a jacket properly is ensuring that A) it fits and is your size & B) is buttoned. The jacket must fit not only the shoulders, but the whole upper body because it's all interdependant. It can be correct in the shoulders, and the scye perfectly fine, but if it's not fitting everywhere else, its still not going to feel right.

Basically, watch 'Entourage', and don't do what they do. Watch 'Mad Men' and do what they do instead.

( On a side note -- if you're into body building, you really cant do off the peg without some issues. The owner of our shop is a bodybuilder, and we have a lot on the client list, and we put them all into our bespoke program. )

 

[retrofashion]

Basically, wearing a jacket properly is ensuring that A) it fits and is your size & B) is buttoned. The jacket must fit not only the shoulders, but the whole upper body because it's all interdependant. It can be correct in the shoulders, and the scye perfectly fine, but if it's not fitting everywhere else, its still not going to feel right.

Thanks. It makes sense.

( On a side note -- if you're into body building, you really cant do off the peg without some issues. The owner of our shop is a bodybuilder, and we have a lot on the client list, and we put them all into our bespoke program. )

Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I was thinking of trying to find a suit that would fit on the shoulders and have the chest, waist etc, which would most likely be too big then, altered to fit me. You think that could work? Could be a way to get me into real vintage suits and would probably be cheaper than the bespoke road.

You work in a tailor shop? Could you tell me the right way to measure one's shoulder without resorting to the "measure a jacket that fits" idea? Meaning actually measuring the shoulders.

Thanks Charles

 

[CharlestonBows]

Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I was thinking of trying to find a suit that would fit on the shoulders and have the chest, waist etc, which would most likely be too big then, altered to fit me. You think that could work? Could be a way to get me into real vintage suits and would probably be cheaper than the bespoke road.

Thats an option that could work - in fact, it's your only real option with readymade. However, the cut of the garment and the vent style will make a difference. Go for a ventless coat if you can, center vent, and lastly, side vents. Side vents make it very difficult to bring in a readymade garment in extreme ways. Significant tailoring on side vented coats get us to talking to the garment, 'Happy Gilmore' style. lol

You work in a tailor shop? Could you tell me the right way to measure one's shoulder without resorting to the "measure a jacket that fits" idea? Meaning actually measuring the shoulders.

First, get a tape measurement of your chest, right under the arm, across the broadest and fullest part of your pectorals. This will usually give you your jacket size. For shoulder measurements, go from point to point, right across the broadest part of your yoke (about where you'd put the bar on a back squat). Don't get too taught with the tape, but don't leave it too lose either.

Your best bet is to visit a local tailor and ask to have your measurements done. Most places shouldn't have too much of a problem with that. We usually provide the client with a full measurement set on one of our sheets, provided that he let us keep the original on file along with one of his business cards, and that he'd give us a shot when he's ready to go bespoke. That's it!

 

[retrofashion]

Thats an option that could work - in fact, it's your only real option with readymade. However, the cut of the garment and the vent style will make a difference. Go for a ventless coat if you can, center vent, and lastly, side vents. Side vents make it very difficult to bring in a readymade garment in extreme ways. Significant tailoring on side vented coats get us to talking to the garment, 'Happy Gilmore' style. lol



First, get a tape measurement of your chest, right under the arm, across the broadest and fullest part of your pectorals. This will usually give you your jacket size. For shoulder measurements, go from point to point, right across the broadest part of your yoke (about where you'd put the bar on a back squat). Don't get too taught with the tape, but don't leave it too lose either.

Your best bet is to visit a local tailor and ask to have your measurements done. Most places shouldn't have too much of a problem with that. We usually provide the client with a full measurement set on one of our sheets, provided that he let us keep the original on file along with one of his business cards, and that he'd give us a shot when he's ready to go bespoke. That's it!

Thanks Charles. Very helpful.
When you say point to point, what points are you talking about?

 

[Jovan]

Yes Baron, I'm indeed a bodybuilder, although nowhere near the competition level guys. That's not my aim. I think you are right, bespoke is probably the only way I will get a 100% fit. Unfortunately this is also the most expensive way, and doesn't allow me the possibility of getting a real vintage suit.
Yes normally the jacket fits good everywhere else. Sometimes the shoulders are a bit too tight too. Modern is sure too big if I get something large enough to fit my shoulders, unless it's some sort of athletic cut. It looks like a sack on me. Never looked at it from a "Bat wing" perspective though, but now that you mentioned, yes.

I'm no bodybuilder, but armholes smaller than around 20" or 19" feel uncomfortable to me. I guess it's just how tall I am? Indy Magnoli is shorter than me, and feels comfortable in a 16" one. I certainly won't settle for a low armhole though, now that I've been educated since being on this forum.

 

[CharlestonBows]

When you say point to point, what points are you talking about?

The very tip end of your shoulder, where it begins to become the upper arm. If rounded or sloping, about where the seam of a proper fitting dress shirt sleeve would start.

 

[retrofashion]

The very tip end of your shoulder, where it begins to become the upper arm.

you mean on the side/outter shoulder?

If rounded or sloping, about where the seam of a proper fitting dress shirt sleeve would start.

That would be pretty hard to measure on me since my shoulders are really round. I guess the shirt line would be easier, but also allows for more error.

 

[Mid-fogey]

I could be wrong...

...but I think that a higher armhole is for a person that wears his jacket all day and doesn't remove it much. When you move around and raise your arms, the jacket doesn't pull back so much from your hands with cuffs sticking far out. Men used to live in their suits, and suits had to move with them. As the 20th century wore on, that began to change.

When men began to take their jackets on and off at work, and started just wearing them for the cleanest and least mobile of jobs, a close fit was no longer required and became somewhat annoying. A high arm is a bit harder to don and remove. A low arm is easy to slide on and slip off.

 

[CharlestonBows]

you mean on the side/outter shoulder?

That would be pretty hard to measure on me since my shoulders are really round. I guess the shirt line would be easier, but also allows for more error.

Outer side of the arm, where the end of your shoulder joint is. If you give some allowance, it is far easier to correct the problem by bringing it in, so err on the slightly larger.

With you, since you are of a large build, I would really recommend having someone that is experienced with the tape to do it.