Why is horsehide better than steerhide?

[John in Covina]

It takes about fifty years to realize how good horsehide is compared to cowhide.

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So basically we can say steerhide will service a person very well for their lifetime but the heirs will complain you didn't get the horsehide!:eusa_clap

 

[Stearmen]

Heirs

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So basically we can say steerhide will service a person very well for their lifetime but the heirs will complain you didn't get the horsehide!:eusa_clap

Since I have decided to leave all my possessions to the Damn cat, he probably doesn't care what the jacket is made of. His claws can do a number on either material!

 

[P5640blouson]

Did some more research on stretchy leather

Did some more research on stretchy leather. Read from some tanners that older hide is weaker to stretch as its collagen fibers are more worn/looser. I guess that can explain why FQHH stretches so as its in the horse's front quarter subjected to years of stretching. It is said that processing and coating techniques can make the leather less stretchy but the base leather is weaker as a rule. So much for choosing the stretched out parts of the hide... With so much variance, it seems to be anyones guess what makes the ultimate jacket leather. Perhaps it boils down to which maker uses the best hides, the best leather, the best processing, the best finish, the best tailoring, on and on. So, why don't they use bull leather? Maybe its hard to wrestle and slaughter a bull, thus driving up the pricelol

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

http://www.holsters.org/which.htm

He is talking about veg tanned and used for holsters, he also says that the veg tanned bits he gets are not the always the best.


"The disadvantages of cowhide? None that I can think of. There was a time when, because of ignorance and a lack of experience, I may have reluctantly wavered on the side of those who said that it was less durable than horsehide. With the benefit of hindsight, however, and after having worked with both materials for many years, I can now state quite categorically that, in my opinion and based on my experience, that just ain't so! Cowhide will outlast and outperform horsehide every time!"

"What can we say in favour of horsehide? Price-wise it's more or less on a par with cowhide, though many manufacturers, for reasons best known to themselves, insist on charging a hefty additional premium. Don't pay it! I know that I charge extra for horsehide, but this is to cover part of the cost of shipping it over from the US. From the supply point of view it may not be as plentiful as cowhide, but there's still enough of it to go around. Is it more durable than cowhide? My experience shows that this is a myth; it isn't. So what advantages does horsehide have over cowhide? To be honest, none that I can think of. On the other hand, we can say that cowhide ticks all the boxes when it comes to material quality, endurance and performance. "


I think it gets down to what one think looks the best.
I think horsehide looks beautiful, but its also a bit to shiny
to feel comfortable in for me.

 

[HDRnR]

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So basically we can say steerhide will service a person very well for their lifetime but the heirs will complain you didn't get the horsehide!:eusa_clap

Its funny you say that because Im judging it based off of my grandfathers horsehide that I wear.

 

[Marv]

I know this question has probably been asked before but.....is it possible to tell the difference between horsehide and steerhide by look, touch and feel or do you need to go technical like DNA testing etc. on the hide.

 

[Dav]

I think it is very difficult as its all down to the tanning process.

 

[John in Covina]

I know this question has probably been asked before but.....is it possible to tell the difference between horsehide and steerhide by look, touch and feel or do you need to go technical like DNA testing etc. on the hide.

Seems to me that there was a dissertation on trying to identify the type of leather in reference to identifying older pilot jackets like A2's in one of the threads.

 

[Southernwayfare]

It would be really great to hear Nick Horween weigh in on this subject. He's visited the forum before. I just posted a request for him to weigh in on this subject at his blog.

Based on my reading, I think most of the current cache of HH is based on it's rarity, not on any substantial differences in its properties (assuming an equal comparison between leathers made the same way by the same hand). HH's use in era's past was due mainly to its availability not special properties. I'm not saying there aren't differences, I'm sure there are but I don't think the differences are as big as one might believe based on reading some of the HH worship that you find. Clearly, HH shells are a special case. I'm referring to FQHH. I suspect that part of the HH fetishism grew up around attempts to get the perfect replica flight jacket in an era when HH wasn't as available.

BTW, for anyone who is interested in leather. I definitely recommend Nick Horween's blog. Lot's of great info on the tanning process and info on companies that he works with.

 

[Edward]

I'm sure the relative rarity of hh is part of its attraction nowadays. Also, the fact of its commonality back in the day, melded into a popular (in vintage circles) view that 'older is better'. Puts me in mind very much of the debates about construction materials of vintage guitars. Many folks will insist that anything other than ash or alder is 'wrong' for a Stratocaster type guitar, and will give you an 'inferior tone'. Leo Fender used ash and later alder simply because those were the cheapest useable woods available. Seems to me there's a lot of wood in the way of seeing the trees in this debate also.

 

[too much coffee]

Right on Edward, well put!

 

[EmergencyIan]

I own a horsehide Good Wear Bronco A-2 and wouldn't want one made out of any other hide.


- Ian

 

[too much coffee]

And if the original contract between Bronco Mfg, NY and the USAAF called for goatskin only..................??

 

[interjake]

Something worth considering.... cordovan leather (shoes) is essentially horsehide. Cordovan shoes can last a lifetime (with resoling); not so other types of leather shoes. Granted it comes down to the quality of the leather and the tanning process, but all things being equal, I'd take horsehide over anything else. One more thing, cordovan leather doesn't permanently crease when bent like other leathers. Cordovan will bend and not crack like other leathers from creases that develop over time. Hope this helps.

 

[too much coffee]

Hey thank you interjake!
Stupid me, I always thought cordovan pertained to color not to the origin of the leather (horse's backside).

Regards, coffee

 

[JLStorm]

I've determined it comes down to personal opinion and opinion only. After talking with manufacturers, especially Aero and hearing their opinions, Im convinced that the horsehide / steerhide debate is simply a battle of personal preference and nothing more.

 

[John in Covina]

I've determined it comes down to personal opinion and opinion only. After talking with manufacturers, especially Aero and hearing their opinions, Im convinced that the horsehide / steerhide debate is simply a battle of personal preference and nothing more.

There are probably differences but we probably don't have enough tracking data to really make a determination. People rely on what they see, hear and read either in person or web info or books.

I think it's possible that horsehide is better but the question is if the premium that is charged worth the advantage? So the question then becomes will I be able to own and wear this jacket long enough to have the proposed advantages come into play?

Also, historically the thing is that a jacket that is abused and/or poorly stored will suffer. How many WWII jackets got hung up and never worn or even given any care for 60 plus years? They may have been moved to an attic or a basement and stored under really poor conditions. Lack of use and good care sucks the life out of a jacket eventually.

We do know that some leathers are poorly suited for an action jacket and won't hold up with normal use let alone true hard conditions. Those leathers may be too thin or soft or have a lack of strength from the type of leather it is or a combination of poor tanning systems that weakens the leather. Within in the broad spectrum of "goatskin" or "cowhide" and "horsehide" there is probably a lot of variance of quality of basic hides, how they're tanned and even the area of the hide from the animal makes a difference. That's a lot of variance so a medium quality horsehide may not be as good as a top notch cowhide in a specific jacket.

All I can say is if you feel that something like 'only horsehide will do' then go for it. Why? Because if it's the type of thing that you have a great cowhide jacket but regret not getting the horsehide every time you wear it, then you are better off being happy with your purchase.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

'Better' is a strong word..and can probably be debated until hell freezes over...although some insist that FQHH is a denser hide than cow. Then the debate turns to HH versus Goat. Others claim it's all in the way hide is processed..tanned...treated. It is a given that some hides have a more impervious painted on finish that seems indestructable..but often offers a muddy or lackluster appearance...beading up like plastic when exposed to the elements.
I have a recently aquired 'steer' jacket from Vanson. One of their older jackets in brand new condition. Evidentally from a batch of hide 'once used'..(still used?)..that displays great charactoristics of grain..sheen..toughness that immediately reminds one of exceptional steer found (seems like)only on the 'occassional' vintage jacket..or rarer new one. The kind of hide that retains charactor with a crisp but comfortable hand that also resists moisture.

..then there is Aero's FQHH. In my view..a unique HH among others(of course in weight)..but also with a slightly waxy finish that still allows great charactor to develope. A marbled graininess mostly found mainly on vintage jackets..and I must admit..some vintage steer jackets as well. Whether Aero's FQHH is tough because of the tanning used...treatment..or a combo can be argued..but whatever..it is unusual among jacket makers. One of a kind.

It seems many are seeking that tough hide..or finish..that still yields 'great charactor' along with durability. I suggest that it can be found in HH..Steer..or goat...but not just anywhere. With that in mind...it would seem that how a hide is prepared has a lot to do with the finished product.
Why is HH better than steer? Well..there are differences. Bullhide...Elephant..Waterbuffalo...etc..are not the same no matter how they are tanned...although the process may add to their natural abilities.
For me..especially Aero's FQHH is better than steer...because a good steerhide seems so hard to find with the charatoristics that I have looked for.

 

[JLStorm]

'Better' is a strong word..and can probably be debated until hell freezes over...although some insist that FQHH is a denser hide than cow. Then the debate turns to HH versus Goat. Others claim it's all in the way hide is processed..tanned...treated. It is a given that some hides have a more impervious painted on finish that seems indestructable..but often offers a muddy or lackluster appearance...beading up like plastic when exposed to the elements.
I have a recently aquired 'steer' jacket from Vanson. One of their older jackets in brand new condition. Evidentally from a batch of hide 'once used'..(still used?)..that displays great charactoristics of grain..sheen..toughness that immediately reminds one of exceptional steer found (seems like)only on the 'occassional' vintage jacket..or rarer new one. The kind of hide that retains charactor with a crisp but comfortable hand that also resists moisture.

..then there is Aero's FQHH. In my view..a unique HH among others(of course in weight)..but also with a slightly waxy finish that still allows great charactor to develope. A marbled graininess mostly found mainly on vintage jackets..and I must admit..some vintage steer jackets as well. Whether Aero's FQHH is tough because of the tanning used...treatment..or a combo can be argued..but whatever..it is unusual among jacket makers. One of a kind.

It seems many are seeking that tough hide..or finish..that still yields 'great charactor' along with durability. I suggest that it can be found in HH..Steer..or goat...but not just anywhere. With that in mind...it would seem that how a hide is prepared has a lot to do with the finished product.
Why is HH better than steer? Well..there are differences. Bullhide...Elephant..Waterbuffalo...etc..are not the same no matter how they are tanned...although the process may add to their natural abilities.
For me..especially Aero's FQHH is better than steer...because a good steerhide seems so hard to find with the charatoristics that I have looked for.

I think you hit the nail on the head, its really more about different, not so much better. Thats just an endless debate and as you and others have suggested, there are just so many factors that come into the equation other than simply the animal.

I have an Aero horsehide mid weight jacket and I have seen and felt the FQHH, I also own a steerhide jacket from them. Now when I had my steer jacket made, I called Will and I said I want the thickest heaviest stiffest hide you have and he had piece of an old brown hide laying around that was just big enough to make a jacket from. I love it. Its very heavy, very stiff and has a very pebbled grain which I also like. On the flip side, the mid weight horse I have has a beautiful smooth finish. I dont think any leather will patina as beautifully as the Aero FQHH. I knew that going into it. Originally I wanted FQHH but Aero talked me into the steer when I said I wanted very thick and very heavy (Will said this piece of steer was well over 6 oz, even though I often forget and tell people who ask its 5.5oz). I had to decide whether I wanted that beautiful patina that their FQHH gets, or do I want super thick and heavy. I decided that the weight and thickness were more important to me. I also knew that there would be a longer break in process. Had I decided that patina was most important, then I would have definitely gone for the FQHH without doubt. There are always tradeoffs and there are even more when you bring other hides into the picture like you said.

The reason Im so adamant about this issue, is that I have seen some people who would have been thrilled with steer end up ordering horse, simply because someone with a high post count said "horse is better" and cite the same old reason "look at what the older A2's are made of", etc. There is just more too it than that. If you dont care about historical accuracy, there are many options for an excellent jacket. It really is so much more about the quality of the individual hide, the tanning process, and quality control or consistency of the source in my opinion. This best hide argument is just as silly as the Ford vs Chevy or Ferrari vs. Lamborghini debate. There is no right answer. You might as well have a debate on favorite colors.

Im glad I talked to Aero and Im glad that I started this thread a while back. Had I ordered horse, I certainly would have been thrilled with the quality, but I wouldnt have gotten what I really wanted, which would have only left me wanting to order another jacket. If someone wants FQHH then by all means, get it, its a great hide. But if they arent sure, or they like some of the features of steerhide over horse, then there is no reason they shouldnt go that direction. Same as if they wanted goat, etc. "Best" is a personal opinion.

 

[John in Covina]

By best, we can ask what do you mean exactly?

Strongest, longest lasting, most comfortable, strong but lightweight, color, patina, grain finish, lightest, heaviest, quickest to break in, slowest to break in, most weather resistant, warmest, coolest, easiest to repair? The list could go on, I just rattled off what came to mind, and so much of these are subjective others are quantifiable but how do you set scales or compare these?

Also for the person the qualifying questions might be: what do you want it for and what will you be doing in that jacket. What do you expect of the jacket. Personally I want it to be: soft and comfotable, offer great protection from motorcycle falls, be light as a feather, look great and be historically accurate, warm in the winter, cool in the summer, be a slim fit but not too snug, make me look great and change colors on command to suit my mood.