Why is horsehide better than steerhide?

[Baron Kurtz]

why is horsehide better?

Is it? I'm not so sure. As noted above, the quality/durability is all down to the skill of the processors.

bk

 

[Senicko_Spain]

Is it? I'm not so sure. As noted above, the quality/durability is all down to the skill of the processors.

bk

BINGO!

 

[suitedcboy]

I'm not so sure that this is the ultimate reason but I have both horses and cattle and I have vaccinated both hundreds of times. The needle goes into a horses flesh far more easily than into cattle. I vote for steerhide.
My horses vote for steerhide also......

 

[Nash Buckingham]

I've used both in my cowboy life for working gear - the thing about horsehide is that a 4 oz. horsehide has the same strength and durability as a 6-7 oz. cowhide so ultimately it is lighter in weight for the cowhide counterpart.

Also, horsehide is the stuff that shell cordovan is made of - some of the most durable footwear - but also difficult to aquire .

The other thing is that both sides of a hosehide are smooth - the inside and the flesh side - so if you are making using gear, you don't always have to line it.

As to clothing weight, I have a pair of lightweight horsehide chaps that have seen a lot of hard use, but have held up well.

 

[P5640blouson]

Reviving this as it deserves more attention

Anyone who have experience with both in terms of aging durability? Reason why I ask is because in researching old fotos of steer/cow vs. horse I see that horse ages similarly and eventually becomes decrepid and in need of retanning, just like cow. In pictures, at least I seems that a great consistently tanned consistent grain steer/cow leather would wear more predictably and stably than a varying grain piece of horse. It seems that the more deep grain imperfections the more weak points in the leather, and the entire garment is only as strong as its weakest points, including wear points. So, in the end I don't think its the material choise, per se, that determines cost. I think its the exotic-ness of horse that drives the price up, not necessarily the quality and fit for service that does it completely. Take a pice of alligator or croc, its super expensive to turn into shoes, wallets, even watchbands, but they are not known to be the most durable as it cracks at the cracks and becomes brittle rather easily. I have seen this in high end $200 watchbands left unused for 5 years. They get brittle and the moment you flex it it starts to fall apart. If you got veggie tanned horse, better keep it dressed up so it doesn't crack at the grain structure. Even a Lost Worlds jacket was reported on this or another forum as developing a crack/hole / tear at its weakest part of grain. Granted it was a clearance piece, but case in point, you don't want a defective piece of hide in you high dollar jacket, that's for sure.

 

[captaincaveman1]

Kangaroo is actually supposed to offer more abrasion resistance than either and is lighter to boot. World's top moto racers wear roo suits. Go figure.

 

[bobbyball]

I think other than historical accuracy there is no reason to prefer one type of leather over another as they all fit certain needs. Lambskin is great for one type of jacket, cowhide for another, goatskin for another, etc.

For an A2 or G1, I'd want horsehide or goatskin even if a case could be made that steer might be tougher or look better or whatever.

My sentiments exactly. Although there is as much variation in hides from flimsy to armour like horse I would always go the horsehide or goatskin route. All my repro horsehides have taken a lot of patience to wear-in and for the less impatient owner this is sometimes a challenge.

When I look through old photos of aircrews there is a huge variation between hides. Perhaps the 70 years of ageing/weathering makes these jackets stiffer to the touch. My original A2 that is hardly worn feels quite soft and pliable and that is definately horse. Some of the repro makers use front quarter horsehide which is tougher than the other parts so I am not sure FQHH was used originally – I think they must have utilised every part of the skins back then and the tanning processes were different to most used today.

I was looking closely at one of my repro HH and noticed that just under the top surface the hide colour is lighter. This is not evident on my originals so maybe the treatments of the leather are quite different?

 

[sbhva]

I have seen some posts on this fourm that state that HH gets very stiff when it gets cold. Am I going to have difficulty moving my arms if I get an ELC B-3 jacket with the HH on the sleeves?

 

[tonypaj]

I have seen some posts on this fourm that state that HH gets very stiff when it gets cold. Am I going to have difficulty moving my arms if I get an ELC B-3 jacket with the HH on the sleeves?

No.

 

[Stan]

Good one!

I'm not so sure that this is the ultimate reason but I have both horses and cattle and I have vaccinated both hundreds of times. The needle goes into a horses flesh far more easily than into cattle. I vote for steerhide.
My horses vote for steerhide also......

Hi,

I polled my Herefords this morning, and they unanimously voted that horsehide is absolutely the best without question!

Now they're off tipping over burger joint signs.....

lol

Stan

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I got samples of Aeros horse and steer some days ago.
(about 8 samples of normal and vintage and brown and cordovan etc.)

The horse was very easy to stretch.
At the streched points, the color lighnened and the hide "got thinner"
and never got back to its original look/feel.

The steer is not stretchy.

Based on the samples I got, the heavy steer looks extremely nice and I will go with that.

I can uderstand how the horse will get a very nice broken in look
but for durabillity (based on the few samples I got) I think heavy steer.

 

[P5640blouson]

Excellent real experiences, thanks!

Excellent real experiences, thanks!
I have heard from tanners in U.S., chrome tanned for strength and veggie tan for hand. Also heard veggie tan requires oils/lanolin to maintain hand and prevent cracking/shrinking. Chrome tanned more forgiving to weather effects including water whereas veggie tanned will wash out and shrink if left wet. Perhaps the WWII garments were chrome tanned which is less environmental.
If this is true then its interesting the chrome tanning is less cost but higher performance. Veggie tan takes longer as it is also said. Bird poop probably even longer, and stinks.lol
In terms of finish appearance, transparent dies let the true grain show while pigments/topcoats much less. For black/brown leather I can see this is important to show the natural grain.
This is turning out into a very nice survey to find the truth, indeed.

 

[jon z]

In my experience of having quite a few vintage jackets over the years, mainly in Horse but some in Steer I can make this observation. Jackets made from Horse appear newer than an equivalent aged jacket made from Steer. Steer leather becomes limper, develops more creasing & shews more lose of the original finished surface. It's akin to two persons standing side-by-side, one appearing to be in their 60s, the other in their 40s when both are actually 50.

 

[P5640blouson]

Side by side wear comparison

Those Side by side wear comparisons are the most telltale. Researching Buco J-100 HH vs Steer and I came across several in Steer that look pretty bad. I see some great HH examples still from the the 50's. Hard to tell how they were tanned and how they were used however. I know that Buco switched to Steer late in their history. I wonder did quality slide with that shift...

Then look at all those vintage Langlitz in cow, they look simply fabulous, many of them, still, to this day. They've got some great leather. And Lewis Leathers vintage also look fabulous 30+years later.

I guess it comes to show how many variances there are between tanners, makers, and users affecting this study. These variances seem to make it near impossible to determine.

 

[roadking04]

Does anyone know if aero's horsehide is "drum dyed"? I have heard that drum dyed is far better, and the color does not rub off. Just curious.

 

[jon z]

P5640blouson you mention Lewis leathers at 30+ years old. I'm referring to, for instance, the likes of Buco, Sears, Windward, Penney's & at least two I can think of without makers names at twice that age. I don't know much about Langlitz other than they are held in high regard for being top quality & that their styles do not appeal to me so have no idea as to what age jackets from them you are referencing.

 

[rgraham]

My experience between the two is minimal. When I ordered an A-2 from a highly regarded maker, he set me a large amount of samples to choose from. Most were horse, and one was steer. I took them outside and gave them the once over. By that I mean I pulled, scratched, rubbed and basically sanded each piece on a rough cement floor. What I found out was that the steer hide was almost indestructible. Where all the others failed, the steer shown through. I really rubbed the heck out of it on the cement, and was amazed at how the finish remained intact. Veg tanned. Is it an authentic A-2 without being horse hide? Well, even if it was horse, it wouldn't be authentic. And I'll bet anyone that they couldn't tell the difference anyway.

Since I only care about what will happen to the jacket in the next 20 or so years, that's the one I chose. If the jacket holds up after 20-30 years, great, but I won't be around to enjoy it. It will most likely never see the rain, as I use other jackets for that.

 

[Fiver64]

input

While I prefer HH for my jackets, due to wear and lasting looks, I must admit that my steerhide police jacket has been taking a DAILY beating, in all sorts of weather and situations, for 10 years, and (apart from being nicely broken in) still looks great. BUT it does require conditioning every 2-3 years.

I have never personally seen a nice looking (not dry and cracking) 50+ year old steerhide jacket. Have owned several 70+ year-old HH that look almost brand new. May just be how they were stored....... I don't know.

 

[P5640blouson]

There was a time where steer was not used as much

There was a time where steer was not used as much as horse. That may or may not indicate the periods and prevalence of jacket material. Another case can be made for the ideal period for which a leather should last and be functional from a utility and aesthetic viewpoint. I would prefer a hard used (hard but not combat hard as that can break anything) jacket to last a person's adult lifetime mimimum, so 50+ years is reasonable for the best. So there are 70/80 year old HH jackets still in great shape (stored or used), in terms of hard evidence and actual samples, it would seem that HH has a bit of a lead, even though many practical use stories say steer is very strong from stretching. Any old steer/cow samples out there older than 60 years? This is getting more interesting...

 

[HDRnR]

From personal experience I'd say horse is way tougher, especially over time. The only cowhide I've seen that is close is Langlitz heavy cowhide, that stuff could be mistaken for horse. When I say tougher Im talking about abrasion resistance.