Why!!!! Hipsters!!! Why!!!!!

[kiwilrdg]

That's pretty much what I saw or perceived in that picture: clueless, disconnected self-absorption much akin to the more common occurrence of rubberneckers who snarl up traffic on the freeway whenever there's an accident.

But they were a safe distance from the scene and did not appear to be obstructing anything. If you assume that they do not have any first-responder training it is not a bad thing that they were not adding congestion to the roads by trying to cross the bridge to get a closer look or to make a video of it for YouTube.

 

[sheeplady]

I agree, in fact many of the people who appear to be celebrating quite likely would agree as well. I was saying that it is often used as a coping mechanism. I have heard some pretty scary things said by people in the US in both directions about recent conflicts.

War is evil and everyone in war needs to find some way to compartmentalize their thoughts about things that are necessary for war (to avoid remaining evil after the war) so they can deal with their life later. War is not full of glory or goodness. War is evil. People fighting in a war do evil things that go against what they believe in for what they think is the right thing. Nothing is right in war and the world would be a better place if we could stop all war. Civilians and innocents is not really a black and white issue in war so things happen that should not happen and everything that happens good for someone is terrible for someone else. Even an enemy soldier that is killed is likely to have a child at home that will lose a parent. Celebrating a victory is often just a way of dealing with the reality of the situation.

I don't feel that is always the case, celebrating like that without the underlying issues or concern for the losers is evil.

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence- I get what you're saying, but I'm not parsing the last sentence.

I'll also add that I don't see 9/11 as war- it was an attack and an act of war- but only the trigger of a war. Terrorism isn't warfare in the classical sense of two armies duking it out.

 

[Noirblack]

That's pretty much what I saw or perceived in that picture: clueless, disconnected self-absorption much akin to the more common occurrence of rubberneckers who snarl up traffic on the freeway whenever there's an accident.

This link provides information from two of the people in the picture:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/culturebox/2006/09/its_me_in_that_911_photo.html

 

[kiwilrdg]

I'll also add that I don't see 9/11 as war- it was an attack and an act of war- but only the trigger of a war. Terrorism isn't warfare in the classical sense of two armies duking it out.

To someone who has grown up in a city where there has been frequent bombing, seeing the world trade center collapse would seem like the rocket and artillery attacks that they have been seeing all their lives except it is occuring in the country that has sent much of the hardware (or that is percieved to have sent it) that has been used to destroy their city for decades.
I don't think there has ever been a war that was just two armies duking it out. Even if the battles are isolated from the civilians, there are families that suffer losses. War does look a lot worse from the inside.

 

[kiwilrdg]

I don't feel that is always the case, celebrating like that without the underlying issues or concern for the losers is evil.

was stemming from your statement:

I have known one person who felt that 9/11 was a big joke, and I do believe that person was an incredibly evil person. This person was bred, born, and raised as a U.S. citizen by U.S. parents on U.S. soil. I'm not going to see his taunting of people who lost family and friends (to their face) as anything different than evil.

The person you were talking about was not expressing a celebration of a possible reduction in his suffering and not a hope for the end of the fighting. That is evil

 

[Undertow]

This link provides information from two of the people in the picture:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/culturebox/2006/09/its_me_in_that_911_photo.html

Excellent link, Noir. And yet more evidence that journalism is shameless in its pursuit to sell a story, both past and present.

If you haven't visited the link (and you probably should if you are at all interested in that photo) you'll see accounts from those photographed. They claim they were in a state of shock and that a photograph taken without their permission and unknown to them doesn't explain their state of mind or reaction.

It's also worth noting that they weren't all "friends" sitting around; the two on the right were dating and were talking to strangers about the events unfolding.

 

[ButteMT61]

Excellent link, Noir. And yet more evidence that journalism is shameless in its pursuit to sell a story, both past and present.If you haven't visited the link (and you probably should if you are at all interested in that photo) you'll see accounts from those photographed. They claim they were in a state of shock and that a photograph taken without their permission and unknown to them doesn't explain their state of mind or reaction.It's also worth noting that they weren't all "friends" sitting around; the two on the right were dating and were talking to strangers about the evens unfolding.

Interestingly, people still to this day don't like the way George W. Bush reacted in the school while reading a book with the kids. I'm torn on that one. Everyone is entitled to be in shock and not knowing what to do (for a minute) but the POTUS? I read where Congress also sat in utter shock, unable to react immediately to the news. I think we all felt that way. Even though the POTUS is the head honcho, such a travesty was out of the realm of our understanding. I don't blame ANYONE for not knowing how to react to such news. I still watch the videos and can't believe what transpired...

 

[John in Covina]

The fact that the people in the photo were not interviewed does make it that one sided view as listed above mourners at a funeral aren't always in mourning mode and that is not a criminal or neglagent thing. (When my dad passed cousins came to the funeral, told me a funny story or 2 about my dad and we laughed, it did much to break the dreadful feelings, showing compassion and love. If there was a photo of me laughing others may have considered it crass and self interested only which was not the case.)

 

[John in Covina]

I agree, in fact many of the people who appear to be celebrating quite likely would agree as well. I was saying that it is often used as a coping mechanism. I have heard some pretty scary things said by people in the US in both directions about recent conflicts.

War is evil and everyone in war needs to find some way to compartmentalize their thoughts about things that are necessary for war (to avoid remaining evil after the war) so they can deal with their life later. War is not full of glory or goodness. War is evil. People fighting in a war do evil things that go against what they believe in for what they think is the right thing. Nothing is right in war and the world would be a better place if we could stop all war. Civilians and innocents is not really a black and white issue in war so things happen that should not happen and everything that happens good for someone is terrible for someone else. Even an enemy soldier that is killed is likely to have a child at home that will lose a parent. Celebrating a victory is often just a way of dealing with the reality of the situation.

I don't feel that is always the case, celebrating like that without the underlying issues or concern for the losers is evil.

This seems to say there is no right and wrong and no justice in war. Does this apply to WWII?

 

[kiwilrdg]

This seems to say there is no right and wrong and no justice in war. Does this apply to WWII?

In the big picture there is a clear cut right and wrong.
On a smaller scale there are issues that cloud right and wrong like the treatment of German prisoners by the Russians, treatment of Japanese-Americans in the US during the war, etc. It is part of the nature of war, bad things happen. An ugly reality but it is sometimes necessary because a real war is not an ideal situation.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I'll give you an actual hipster-like reaction on 9/11.

I grew up in NYC, btw, but I was working at a day job in Maine. When I read the news I began to panic. Was my family OK? What was happening? I walked over to the desk of a woman from CA to see if she heard the news. She looked at me, saw my expression as I told her about the twin towers coming down (surreal to type that, still). Looking disgusted at me, she said "DUDE! Calm DOWN!" And proceeded to chatter on with my other co-worker about some unrelated nonsense. Later there was an office meeting and I asked if I could skip it to call my family...plus I was very upset. My boss asked: "Does your family live in the twin towers? No, so go to the meeting."

I still get bitter when I think abut it.

 

[John in Covina]

In the big picture there is a clear cut right and wrong.
On a smaller scale there are issues that cloud right and wrong like the treatment of German prisoners by the Russians, treatment of Japanese-Americans in the US during the war, etc. It is part of the nature of war, bad things happen. An ugly reality but it is sometimes necessary because a real war is not an ideal situation.

Thanks for the clarification. That gives a bit more background reasoning to your statement.

 

[John in Covina]

I'll give you an actual hipster-like reaction on 9/11.

I grew up in NYC, btw, but I was working at a day job in Maine. When I read the news I began to panic. Was my family OK? What was happening? I walked over to the desk of a woman from CA to see if she heard the news. She looked at me, saw my expression as I told her about the twin towers coming down (surreal to type that, still), and looking disgusted, and said "DUDE! Calm DOWN!" And proceeded to chatter on with my other co-worker about some unrelated nonsense. Later there was an office meeting and I asked if I could skip it to call my family...plus I was very upset. My boss asked: "Does your family live in the twin towers? No, so go to the meeting."

I still get bitter when I think abut it.

People have no connection and there for don't appreciate the nature of that day. I lost 2 cousins in the collapse of the towers, they were firefighters part of the first responders from the closest firehouse. I knew people that had worked in the WTC and knew that the complex was so much more than business offices. This was an attack on US soil at a level that we have not seen since perhaps Pearl harbor. the fact it was on the continental US made it much more. I can imagine that your boss would have told everyone to get their lazy a22es back to work had he been around when JFK was shot.

 

[Undertow]

kiwilrdg, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that many things are relative, especially regarding conflicts.

When towers come down in the US, it hurts our feelings (in the US), but doesn't necessarily make the same impact on someone in Iraq.

When a school full children is blown up in Iraq, Iraqis may be quite angry, but we may not even notice. Or perhaps we glance at the article, shudder and move on.

It's not that people are general barbarous, it's just that we're all selfish creatures by nature and thus we aren't always thinking about the way our actions might affect an audience.

Correct?

 

[Undertow]

I'll give you an actual hipster-like reaction on 9/11.

I grew up in NYC, btw, but I was working at a day job in Maine. When I read the news I began to panic. Was my family OK? What was happening? I walked over to the desk of a woman from CA to see if she heard the news. She looked at me, saw my expression as I told her about the twin towers coming down (surreal to type that, still), and looking disgusted, and said "DUDE! Calm DOWN!" And proceeded to chatter on with my other co-worker about some unrelated nonsense. Later there was an office meeting and I asked if I could skip it to call my family...plus I was very upset. My boss asked: "Does your family live in the twin towers? No, so go to the meeting."

I still get bitter when I think abut it.

Wow.

That is disgusting. Im sorry to even read that. What a bunch of no class hicks.

 

[John in Covina]

kiwilrdg, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically saying that many things are relative, especially regarding conflicts.

When towers come down in the US, it hurts our feelings (in the US), but doesn't necessarily make the same impact on someone in Iraq.

When a school full children is blown up in Iraq, Iraqis may be quite angry, but we may not even notice. Or perhaps we glance at the article, shudder and move on.

It's not that people are general barbarous, it's just that we're all selfish creatures by nature and thus we aren't always thinking about the way our actions might affect an audience.

Correct?

There is also the fact that our news is filtered. If you rely on TV news the the program is streamlined to present their selects as to what is covered. If you are in an area that has foreign language stations, their news focus on a lot of other stuff. On a spanish station you may see rioting in South America. The German news covers things we don't see and so on. It takes a lot to make the news in the US. We sometimes see it when something like the new i phone as marginally more important to reproting than the embassey attacks. Or local thunderstorms displace any report of the Eu voting for protection of the Euro value. It affects us but the advertisers don't pay for boring.

 

[Undertow]

There is also the fact that our news is filtered. If you rely on TV news the the program is streamlined to present their selects as to what is covered. If you are in an area that has foreign language stations, their news focus on a lot of other stuff. On a spanish station you may see rioting in South America. The German news covers things we don't see and so on. It takes a lot to make the news in the US. We sometimes see it when something like the new i phone as marginally more important to reproting than the embassey attacks. Or local thunderstorms displace any report of the Eu voting for protection of the Euro value. It affects us but the advertisers don't pay for boring.

That is a fact. In Des Moines, weather and sports are key on broadcast news. The Des Moines Register, well, let me know if you actually catch anyone reading it. The DMR went from a nationally renowned, Pulitzer prize winning newspaper to a Gannett-owned flop that fired every decent journalist in favor of gossip pieces and dog-bites-man fluff.

Frankly, I'm quite disappointed in American news. I often have to rely on other countries' news coverage. With the rise of the internet news source, I have more US options, but even then one has to be careful of a sharp slant.

 

[LizzieMaine]

"Who needs trained professional journalism? We have these like really cool blogs to tell us everything we want to know and stuff."

 

[ButteMT61]

Do hipsters like warm ice cream???

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Don't give them ideas.