White Tie Outerwear

[cufflinkmaniac]

Having had the hope of morning dress scrubbed out due to lack of venue, I have reset my sights on white tie for my (still theoretical) trip to Vienna. I know that the correct overcoats are the Chesterfield or the Inverness (or an opera cloak but not even I'm that bold) but I also know that my budget will not allow for their purchase (unless I come into a good deal of money) so I am in something of a predicament. If I go, it will be in January (2010 or 1011, depnding on budget) for the Philharmonic Ball, so it will be quite cold. Can a regular black (or dare I say charcoal) overcoat take the place of the aforementioned garments?

 

[Barrelhouse]

Charlie Huang is the best man to answer this question as he has excellent taste and the finest understanding of European "delicacies" in fashion etiquette especially in regards to formal wear. Having said that I'll blunder an opinion: you are right in that tradition would dictate an opera cape for white tie attire followed by a black Inverness coat cut specifically for formal or "town" use (many, if not all, Inverness coats these days are cut in heavy tweeds for country wear).

I'm not sure what you mean by a "regular black overcoat" so I can't address that issue. A 3/4 length car coat, black or otherwise, would be very much out of place. The coat must hang lower than the tip of your tails. But I personally don't think anyone in Vienna would look at you as an ill-breed American barbarian if you wore a tailored black (no other color) topcoat with white tie formal wear, again assuming it is of a suitable weight and cut (ie not too coarse a fabric nor cut too short).

That's my take on the subject for what its worth. I certainly hope you make the trip. I am already envious

 

[Spitfire]

Since you are not going to dance wearing the overcoat, my guesse is you'll be OK in a black/dark LONG overcoat.
There will probably many people in the entrance, hanging up their overcoats - so nobody will look sideways...Enjoy and have fun. You're in Europe!

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Thanks! I meant a calf-length overcoat, certainly long enough to cover the tails.

Charlie Huang is the best man to answer this question as he has excellent taste and the finest understanding of European "delicacies" in fashion etiquette especially in regards to formal wear. Having said that I'll blunder an opinion: you are right in that tradition would dictate an opera cape for white tie attire followed by a black Inverness coat cut specifically for formal or "town" use (many, if not all, Inverness coats these days are cut in heavy tweeds for country wear).

I'm not sure what you mean by a "regular black overcoat" so I can't address that issue. A 3/4 length car coat, black or otherwise, would be very much out of place. The coat must hang lower than the tip of your tails. But I personally don't think anyone in Vienna would look at you as an ill-breed American barbarian if you wore a tailored black (no other color) topcoat with white tie formal wear, again assuming it is of a suitable weight and cut (ie not too coarse a fabric nor cut too short).

That's my take on the subject for what its worth. I certainly hope you make the trip. I am already envious

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Point well taken!

Since you are not going to dance wearing the overcoat, my guesse is you'll be OK in a black/dark LONG overcoat.
There will probably many people in the entrance, hanging up their overcoats - so nobody will look sideways...Enjoy and have fun. You're in Europe!

 

[Edward]

I've given some thought to this myself. I would eventually like a db Chesterfield, in a herringbone pattern with black velvet collar. Until such times as that becomes my highest wardrobe priority simulataneously with the funds being available, I am considering this:

http://www.thedarkangel.co.uk/catalogue3.php?pic=1&p=73

This is a reproduction of a Victorian coachman's overcoat, and I believe would look superb. Never seen one of these in person, though I have encountered a whole range of Dark Angel products, all of which have been of a very high quality. GBP170.

 

[Anthony Jordan]

A very well-dressed Don of my acquaintance used (and for aught I know still does) to wear a tailored dark blue single-breasted overcoat over his tails with a top hat and looked very well in it, I thought. Personally I favour a black velvet-collared pseudo-Chesterfield (regular rather than fly front) worn with a cream and cardinal striped silk scarf by Rogers Peet when I bother with outerwear at all.

 

[Fletch]

What's the ticket if you're going full-dress in warm weather? I know tails should never be the outer layer outdoors.

I'm thinking some sort of unlined duster, tho it would likely fail the "must be black" test.

Classically, of course, it would be the opera cloak.

 

[Edward]

I think it reasonable to be flexible in warmer weather. traditional etiquette is all very well, but I'd rather not risk heatstroke - let alone smelling severely sweaty before the night even begins!

 

[Fletch]

If I ever had such an invite (not likely [huh]), I might put a dead white mess jacket and Panama on over the piqué shirt and waistcoat.

During the short run of the mess jacket in 1933-'35, anything up to black tie/white weskit was acceptable with it. From that point (plus 3/4 century or so), white tie would be the next logical step.
Yes, I'm gradually rethinking my former no-prisoners policy about full dress.

Anyone who called me "Admiral" or fish-eyed me for a menial would, of course, get the fish-eye back.

 

[avedwards]

fftopic: Are you allowed to wear black tie outside without an overcoat?

 

[Fletch]

Definitely. Less formal all around, really.

 

[avedwards]

And my black leather gloves and grey fedora too? I know homburg is correct but I have heard enough people here say that a grey or black fedora was worn with a DJ from the 40s onwards as people couldn't always afford an extra hat just for formal wear.

If it's cold though, can I wear the coat I'm wearing in my avatar with a DJ? It's long enough and dark grey with a hint of loden green (as that's what it's made of).

Would a black cloak be going too far?

 

[anon`]

What's the ticket if you're going full-dress in warm weather? I know tails should never be the outer layer outdoors.

I'm thinking some sort of unlined duster, tho it would likely fail the "must be black" test.

Classically, of course, it would be the opera cloak.

I think you've answered your own question. Anyone brave enough to wear white tie in this day and age ought to be brave enough to sport a cloak! The only reason not to, really, is that of finance (and having seen what proper opera cloaks go for, this is not an inconsiderable issue!) but barring that...

How warm are we talking, though? Worst case, a dark coat simply draped over one's shoulders should suffice for that brief jaunt from car to destination. Ostensibly, it seems to me that one well-heeled enough to be wearing tails back when would probably be dropped off at their destination by coach or car, regardless. A brief period of discomfort, perhaps, after which their outerwear would be deposited in a check for the evening.

 

[Chasseur]

This might sound like a copout, but in this day and age so few people know what features distinguishes a Chesterfield from a Crombie from other forms of overcoats. (If you don't belive me there were some rather entertaining debates on Ask Andy and other style forums awhile back on what exactly a Chesterfield is and is not.)

I think most traditional black overcoats would match well with white tie and tails, just add a white silk scarf, topper and gloves for accessories. Perhaps a nice umbrella?

Also, as Marc is fond of saying on this forum, get a nice overcoat you like at the right price and have a tailor add the velvet collar for a modest fee. That is perhaps the simplist way to get a Chesterfield you like.

 

[Barrelhouse]

... in this day and age so few people know what features distinguishes a Chesterfield from a Crombie .....

Truer words won't be spoken. Most people, even in the trade, don't know about classic fashion and cuts. Inverness', Ulsters, Macs?...all the same to these guys.

The good news is that it has gotten very difficult to make a fashion mistake so bad that anyone will notice outside of your Mom, folks on this forum and living historians. Plus, just like today fashion and the rules governing it change over time. In the 1890's one would really look rather out of place at a white tie ball without an opera cape but by the 1940's sporting a cape was seen as old fashioned and a bit of an affectation.

In my opinion, it is better to be a little off the traditional dress code and looking a well groomed 21st century gent than following the letter of the law and looking like you are acting a part in Victorian drag.

 

[BinkieBaumont]

"The Mans Book" of 1958, advises a Double breasted Chesterfield in midnight blue or a Cloak! personally I think I would wear my Racoon Fur coat on my shoulders!

Not that one attends those type of events, or wants to, I may add" and anyway I sold my dinner suit in the recession of, was it 1989?

with this watch

 

[Edward]

A wrist watch with tails? surely not!

 

[BinkieBaumont]

Its an Australian flip/wrist phone, rather heavy but cute to use on the train, in front of riff raff

 

[Barrelhouse]

Binkie that raccoon coat is the Bee's knees!! Very Boola boola:eusa_clap :eusa_clap