White Tie - Double striped trousers

[manton]

Is pocket placement different with formal (tails) vs. lounge(tux)? I have heard that the pockets on tail coat trousers were forward so that when you put your hand in your pocket you did not push back the tail.

Never heard that. I'm not sure why it should be so, since tailcoat fronts are cut so high, and the tails are cut more or less contiguous with the trouser backparts:

Apparel Arts, Winter 1936. Watercolor by Leslie Saalburg.

 

[The Wingnut]

Does anyone have a picture of the double stripe? I've a pair of formal trousers I suspect are double stripe but have no way of verifying this without knowing exactly what to look for.

I have an absolutely incredible double-breasted late '30s Bond Clothiers tux with single-stripe trousers. It's just a simple grosgrain ribbon about 1/2" wide going up the side seam.

The other pair of trousers, on the other hand, has a thick cord in the middle, with a ribbon on either side. Never gave it much thought, I simply figured it was a different style of hiding the seam. This thread has made me consider it more in depth.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The most expensive tails' trousers actually had two cords of silk or rayon fabric (usually a grosgrain of some kind). Each cord was sewn in separately.


Less expensive tails' trousers had one ribbon of silk or rayon fabric with three stripes woven into it: grosgrain - satin - grosgrain. The satin serves as a buffer between the two grosgrain stripes. Again, this was one band of fabric. Easier (and cheaper) to sewn in one band than to sew in two, yes?



.

 

[shindeco]

Single stripes range anywhere from half an inch to a full inch wide. The older ones tend to be a little narrower, in my experience.

The forward pockets were done only by some tailors. It was supposedly on just the pockets but the whole side seam. The trousers were cut so that the side seam was at an angle to match the angle at the top of the tails. The tails are supposed to start just above your hip bones and curve around back (hence the nickname "swallowtail coat" for this kind of coat).

I have a pair with the cord/ribbon combo, too. My assumption is that they are probably trying to cover the "double duty" issue (tails and dinner jacket) but it may just be a throwback tot he military style stripe.

A true double stripe is very obviously two narrow ribbons. Don't have any so can't post a picture, sorry.

 

[manton]

Traditionally, the stripe (or stripes) was made from the same material as the lapel facings.

 

[The Wingnut]

While we're on the topic of white tie, could anyone refer me to where on earth I can dig up a '30s vintage or at least '30s style cut and quality formal tailcoat? I've been digging for more than 2 years for one and have come up empty, even on that popular auction site we won't mention. I'm a 36R.

I've also had no luck with a proper pique white tie(NOT the clip on kind, found one of those) or a bib shirt.

- edit: I should be more specific. I'm looking for the smaller size white tie, with pointed ends. manton's got a good start, but with my small neck and face, medium and large bow ties look comical.

 

[manton]

I don't know where to get vintage. However, the Brooks RTW tailcoat is, or used to be, passably decent. However, for all I know, they may not even carry it any more. It's not on the website, for instance, though that is not dispositive.

Hackett in the UK also sells RTW tails that are a cut above in my opinion.

A white pique tie should not be hard to find at all:

http://www.hackett.com/index.cfm?pa...91&productvar=910926591-100-14.5&refpage=1220

The best dress ties that I know of are made by Budd in London, individually sized to your neck so that no metal buckle shows in back. It's an old world shop; they may not even be aware of the Internet.

 

[Orgetorix]

I don't know where to get vintage. However, the Brooks RTW tailcoat is, or used to be, passably decent. However, for all I know, they may not even carry it any more. It's not on the website, for instance, though that is not dispositive.

The tailcoat is part of their Golden Fleece line, from which they sell no suits on the web. They're only available in stores. My local BB had the tailcoat as recently as the last couple of months, though when I was last in a couple of weeks ago they had rearranged the store and I didn't see it. I didn't look very hard, though; I'm sure any BB store can order one in for you if they don't have it in stock.

 

[manton]

I don't know where to get a RTW batwing or diamond tip dress tie. Budd would probably make you one bespoke. It would not be cheap, but as bespoke goes, far from outrageously expensive.

 

[Orgetorix]

I'm looking for the smaller size white tie, with pointed ends. manton's got a good start, but with my small neck and face, medium and large bow ties look comical.

I also remember Brooks Brothers having a pretty varied selection of both white and black bow ties. I don't remember specifically whether they had a white pointed tie, but it'd be worth checking out.

 

[Tomasso]

I'm looking for the smaller size white tie, with pointed ends.

Robert Talbott will whip one up for you, any shape, width or length you want. They made me a black bow for around $80, in less than a month.

 

[David V]

Never heard that. I'm not sure why it should be so, since tailcoat fronts are cut so high, and the tails are cut more or less contiguous with the trouser backparts:

Apparel Arts, Winter 1936. Watercolor by Leslie Saalburg.

This has drove me crazy all day!
Here is where I had read it.
http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5526

Cloth buttons are again the vogue although bone buttons are also correct. The side of the coat curves slightly over the hips as it goes to the tails. Trousers are cut forward which bring the pockets farther front so as not to disturb the coat when a hand is thrust into the pocket, and have two medium wide plain braids set closely on side of leg.*

This is on the first page and comes at the end of the section titled Re Evenind Dress.

I feel better now :eusa_doh:

 

[Happy Stroller]

Thanks for posting that wonderful drawing of Clark Gable with his hands inside the side pockets of a pair of full dress pants from Apparel Arts, Winter 1936. Watercolor by Leslie Saalburg.

Shindeco was right. When I zoomed my web browser to 200%, both of the double stripes could be seen to be in front of the pants side pocket. This became even clearer with image magnification at 300%.

I have a pair of Tuxedo pants made by Shenzhen tailors with the stripe behind the side pocket.

Does that mean that the single stripe is placed behind, while the double stripes are placed in front of the side pockets? Or, have the Shenzhen tailors done something wrong, like their pleated Tuxedo shirts having wing collars?

 

[Tomasso]

drawing of Clark Gable

Press

 

[shindeco]

I have a pair of Tuxedo pants made by Shenzhen tailors with the stripe behind the side pocket.

Does that mean that the single stripe is placed behind, while the double stripes are placed in front of the side pockets? Or, have the Shenzhen tailors done something wrong, like their pleated Tuxedo shirts having wing collars?

It really depends on the type of pocket. I've seen modern evening trousers with the stripe behind the pocket but they have slash pockets (diagonal pockets not in line with the side seam). The older evening trousers all have pockets set into the side seam.

fftopic: This really IS turning into a parody of a London Lounge type of thread, isn't it? The scary part is, I'm enjoying it!:eusa_doh:

 

[Happy Stroller]

Well, the Shenzhen-made Tuxedo pants has the single stripe behind a vertical side pocket that is set into the side seam. The single stripe is 7/16 inches wide. You can see the stitching on both edges of the surface of this almsot half inch wide stripe. One of the stitch line practically sits on the seam line, but both are actually on the same side (the non-pocket side) of the seam line.

Rumaging inside an old cabinet, I found a Tuxedo pants with a 3/4 inch single stripe, also behind a vertical side pocket. There was no brand name, but it was bought from Jos. A. Bank Clothiers in 1980, but has remained unused all these years. The stitching cannot be seen on the outside of this grosgrain pattern stripe. In fact, one edge of the stripe goes into the side seam itself.

It is strange that the stripe does not fulfill the function of protecting the side seam in both instances of the single stripe pants, but I suppose by the time the single stripe pants had been invented, the purpose of using stripes to protect the side seam no longer existed.

Also, you (Shindeco) mentioned you have a cord/ribbon combo. Perhaps the cord was actually over the side seam.

Maybe we need to examine a genuine battle dress pants to see whether they had side pockets!

 

[The Wingnut]

I've examined my double striped trousers. It's definitely two ribbons, the ribbons are sewn on either side of the seam and have a satin band facing the seam. The pockets are along the seam of the trousers and the ribbon runs up the edge of hte pocket. I like this, it's actually a nice touch. If your hadns aren't in them, you'd never know they were there.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I have a vintage dinner jacket and trousers which has double stripes, which at first I thought odd. But apparently during the early history of the "tuxedo" such things were rather common.

 

[shindeco]

I have a vintage dinner jacket and trousers which has double stripes, which at first I thought odd. But apparently during the early history of the "tuxedo" such things were rather common.

I think that the tailors of the time were far less fussy than we are! "It needs a stripe; put a stripe...Where? on the side of the leg, where do you think??"lol

 

[Happy Stroller]

I've examined my double striped trousers. It's definitely two ribbons, the ribbons are sewn on either side of the seam and have a satin band facing the seam. The pockets are along the seam of the trousers and the ribbon runs up the edge of hte pocket. I like this, it's actually a nice touch. If your hadns aren't in them, you'd never know they were there.

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What do you mean when you say the satin band is facing the seam, Wingnut?

Do you really mean to say also that your pants had 3 stripes, with the satin band between the 2 ribbons? Shouldn't that mean your pants has 3 stripes?