White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

[SamMarlowPI]

those are good looking sweaters...hopefully they create an online store to order from so us yanks can get them

 

[Windsock]

Comfort fund sweater

Not a Frock (and definitely not "roll neck"), I recently aquired what I believe to be an original comfort fund sweater, possibly worn by Aircrew.

Typified by a short neck with long arms and body (compare the length to that of the Irvin). Without assuming too much anyone here ever handled one of these and can confirm this or can fill in any details?

It's a great looking piece and i'm really surprised it's lasted so well with only a few nips.

 

[Rufus]

Great find Andrew!

Fantastic collar... if only I had a granny who could knit!

Size 40....hmmmm... my birthday's in March... no pressure. ;-)

I'll have to keep my eyes open for one of these beauties.

Rufus

 

[Spitfire]

After only two years...

My first post in this great forum, was a question on the white RAF pilot sweater. It goes back to august 30th 2006!!!!
Yesterday I got it from WPG!!!!!
And now its summer and hot:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:
(Pics to follow as soon as it gets cool enough.)

 

[Rufus]

Can't wait to see it Sir!


Looking back over this Thread... Where Is Alan?! :-(

I trust he is well, and just too busy to post.

Ruf

 

[Smoothoperator]

The original Navy issue jumper has an actual rollneck which has to be folded down to wear correctly. I've seen copies at Silvermens but having been to London to take a look they don't appear to be genuine.

 

[BellyTank]

... Where Is Alan?! :-(

I trust he is well, and just too busy to post.

Ruf

I've been asking the same thing...


B
T

 

[Smithy]

Paddy seems to have disappeared as well.

I'll have them both up on AWOL charges if they're not careful

 

[BellyTank]

What's that Old Man..? they're on AOL..?

Paddy, it seems, has computer problems.
Must be serious problems, he seems to have been away for weeks.

Alaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!


B
T

 

[Spitfire]

Two years after - finally got it!

Here it is gents. My RN/submarine/RAF sweater.
Finally got cold enough to use it.

And it even goes nicely with the ol' Irvin, I think.

Yes - and the sunglasses are RAF Mk VIII.

 

[Windsock]

That's a great look Soren, especially with the Irvin!

 

[carter]

Looking GOOD, Spitfire. Now we need some similar weather in Texas!

 

[Rufus]

Søren, it looks great!

Does it have a full turtleneck type jumper, or just a high collar ?(Weren't the originals like that?)

Ruf

 

[Spitfire]

Thank you gents.

Rufus - the socalled RAF "frock" was a much longer - slightly "impossible" - jumper with a high standing neck.
If you scroll way back in this thread you can see samples.
But this is a rather precise replica of the Royal Navy/Submarine jumper (with rollneck) - also used by many pilots during BoB and later on.
They obviously borrow stuff where they could get it back then.
And like Smithy also said - they flew in all kind of jumpers, pullovers etc. But the image we have left over today is the white RN jumper with rollneck. Must be from movies like battle of Britain, Piece of cake, Deep Blue World, among others

 

[Rufus]

Well, It's very fetching! I see an unnecessary purchase coming on! lol

 

[Spitfire]

My idear about how a RN jumper became a RAF jumper is as follows.
Ever since the days of open cockpit, the pilots had been using "the frock" - which was so long that it covered the pilots freezing behind.
It was clumsy, long and not very smart - but it kept you warm.

Then - when the spit and hurricane came along with closed cockpits - the pilots still wanted the white jumper - it was sort of sexy with both the best blue, the flying suits and the Irvin - the white jumper had sort of become a symbol, but they looked for something shorter, smarter, tighter and still warm. Especially around the neck.
Somebody saw the RN Submarine jumper and - voila - the new white RAF jumper was born. And out went the frock.

 

[RAAF]

My idear about how a RN jumper became a RAF jumper is as follows.
Ever since the days of open cockpit, the pilots had been using "the frock" - which was so long that it covered the pilots freezing behind.
It was clumsy, long and not very smart - but it kept you warm.

Then - when the spit and hurricane came along with closed cockpits - the pilots still wanted the white jumper - it was sort of sexy with both the best blue, the flying suits and the Irvin - the white jumper had sort of become a symbol, but they looked for something shorter, smarter, tighter and still warm. Especially around the neck.
Somebody saw the RN Submarine jumper and - voila - the new white RAF jumper was born. And out went the frock.

Spitfire,
Nice sweater but the theory of frock evolution is off by a bit. The white pre-war frock continued on RAF issue until 1944 when it was replaced by a dark blue version of exactly the same pattern. "The RN jumper as worn by Spitfire pilots" is a product of the 1969 movie, "Battle of Britain" and had far more to do with prop availability than historical precedent. Surviving frocks being few and far between by this point. Same can be said of the RN Fleet Air Arm type C helmets (parading as earlier RAF type B helmets), and orange 1960s pattern mae wests, etc. Robert Shaw sporting the RN jumper in the movie, while iconic, isn't historically accurate.

While there was some use of the RN jumper by aircrew, it was largely confined to those assigned to flying boat squadrons. Being assigned on/near naval installations, they were often supplied with RN items of issue.

Many personal jumpers were worn by aircrew but, photographically, very few showing RN roll neck jumpers.

As ungainly as the RAF frock is/was, it was well designed for its intended purpose. The change to a less-obvious dark blue was literally the only change made to the garment.

 

[H.Johnson]

Good post! Hasn't this been exhausted in previous posts, though? Don't forget the issue of the RN jumper to RAF crews of Air-sea Rescue Boats...

Spitfire,
Nice sweater but the theory of frock evolution is off by a bit. The white pre-war frock continued on RAF issue until 1944 when it was replaced by a dark blue version of exactly the same pattern. "The RN jumper as worn by Spitfire pilots" is a product of the 1969 movie, "Battle of Britain" and had far more to do with prop availability than historical precedent. Surviving frocks being few and far between by this point. Same can be said of the RN Fleet Air Arm type C helmets (parading as earlier RAF type B helmets), and orange 1960s pattern mae wests, etc. Robert Shaw sporting the RN jumper in the movie, while iconic, isn't historically accurate.

While there was some use of the RN jumper by aircrew, it was largely confined to those assigned to flying boat squadrons. Being assigned on/near naval installations, they were often supplied with RN items of issue.

Many personal jumpers were worn by aircrew but, photographically, very few showing RN roll neck jumpers.

As ungainly as the RAF frock is/was, it was well designed for its intended purpose. The change to a less-obvious dark blue was literally the only change made to the garment.

 

[Smithy]

Spitfire,
"The RN jumper as worn by Spitfire pilots" is a product of the 1969 movie, "Battle of Britain" and had far more to do with prop availability than historical precedent.

Although I agree that popular perception was increased by Martin Shaw's wearing of one there are other factors. The first RAF media "superstar" of the war, Cobber Kain of 73 was photographed frequently in one under his SD. It was his preferred flying dress during the cooler months in France.

But I agree it was far less common than it is sometimes perceived. The frock really is a prime example of function over form! Best left to the reenactors than on the high street

 

[H.Johnson]

Positively identified instances of RAF personnel wearing RN knitting are very rare IMO, but in any case I think it's difficult to positively identify whether someone is wearing a RN jumper under a uniform or flying jacket in most photographs.

There is a famous photograph of F/O Eckert taken at Grimbergen (Belgium) wearing what certainly appears to be a RN jumper under an Irvin jacket, but a positive ID can't be made (at least, not by me). Interestingly, this is linked to a posting from some time ago (see below), in which Eckert just missed acquiring an Irvin from a downed comrade. In the photograph referred to above he is wearing a jacket that had belonged to 'Dinger' Bell. It must have been his turn.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14753&page=15