Where to Begin?

[30sbound]

Green-as-grass & looking for help! Most everything about me is 30s-vintage...except the look. Age? well, not quite; early boomer...Music? swing... Reading? old Life mags & pulp... Car? 1938 Packard. Which brings me to the awful realization that I've been driving it for the past two years wearing jeans & a T instead of a fedora & high-waist double breasted pinstripe. You've heard it all before, but how do I get the look that my grandfather had? (That's him as my avatar). I'd like to go with modern-made opposed to true vintage unless you can convince me otherwise. Any help guiding me down the path would be appreciated.

 

[fedoralover]

Well, if you mean modern made as in Modern "Custom" made then you will be fine, but if you mean modern off the shelf, then you are starting in the wrong direction. With a few exceptions most modern off the shelf fedora's are very poor quality and not worth the money. But the first thing you need to figure out is your hat size and the look you want. Is it a copy of the one in your avatar? If so, there are hatters who can make one for you that will look very close to it. Specify some of the things you are looking for.

regards fedoralover

 

[besdor]

You shouldn't knock todays hats fedoralover . While you are 100% right that todays hats are inferior to the hats of yearteryear , if you convice hat wearers not to purchase new hats, the companies will go out of business .It's hard enough to convice todays generation to buy a hat ,but someone who definately a hat wearer should support theor local hat store. There ain't many left today!!!

 

[Nathan Flowers]

The vast majority of the modern hat industry is producing absolute crap, so it may not be a bad thing for these places to go out of business. If they'll produce good quality hats, then more people will buy them. Sure, novice hat wearers may buy a cheap hat from Dorfman or Hatco, but as soon as they wear it in the rain a couple times, and it changes color/shrinks/stinks, they will be less likely to purchase another hat in the future, because they probably will not realize that there are other, quality hats that can take the weather with aplomb.

I don't think Fedoralover means for people not to buy new hats at all. Quality modern hats are out there, and they should be purchased. However, the crap that makes up the majority of what is sold is only hurting the market in the long run.

 

[besdor]

ZOHAR , YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT TODAY'S HATS BEING JUNK . THE PROBLEM IS TO MAKE A HAT THE WAY IT WAS MADE BACK IN THE 1940'S OR 1950'S WOULD MEAN PRICES THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD NOT PAY . REMEBER THAT A HAT SOLD FOR 20.00 IN 1945 WOULD BE A LOT OF MONEY TODAY . HOW MANY GUYS WOULD PAY 300.00 FOR A HAT . ANOTHER PROBLEM IS THE AVAILABLITY OF GOOD FUR . IT'S OUT THERE ,BUT IT IS GRABBED UP BY THE GUYS LIKE HATCO AND OTHERS TO MAKE THE 500X COWBOY HATS . THE COWBOYS WILL PAY THE BIG BUCKS , BUT THE AVERAGE PERSON ON THE STREET THAT WEARS HIS 149.99 KMART SUIT AND 24.99 PAYLESS SHOES WILL NOT . THEY ARE LOOKING AT PRICE NOT QUALITY !!

 

[Nathan Flowers]

That is true as well, but as we have heard from folks that have contacted the felters (specifically Winchester in Tennessee, and another felter in Portugal), we know that a really nice beaver hat body costs about $20. If Hatco were to use these bodies instead of the $1.50 (my estimate) body that they are probably using on their $75 finished hats, then it would benefit the market as a whole. Even if they used a $15 rabbit body, and spent only a couple dollars on sweat and ribbon, Hatco would still be making a decent profit.

 

[BellyTank]

I have to agree with Besdor on this-
(I wrote this before the last 2 posts were up-)

Hat shops and modern hats are the public window for the hat industry and hat wearing.
I'm absolutely sure most hat wearers aren't interested in Vintage hats or spending over $200 on a hat. 'We', the hat Snobs are an extreme minority.
There is a need. If the 'Modern' hatters and the industry go, then there can be no hope for a rennaisance of 'good' hats, no industry... The people who are able to make good hats are making 'crap hats' but they are the ones that CAN make 'good hats' too- if they want to- and can see a market niche.

Imagine if the hat industry went down in flames- then so would the fur-felting industry- no more fur-felt hat bodies= no more hats at all...

And as for 'Novice Hat Wearers', I'm sure there are many 'seasoned' hat wearers, owning many hats who don't care to spend a fortune on a hat and don't care for or appreciate a 'fine quality' or 'vintage style' hat.

The hats/hatters that interest most on this forum will likely remain in the 'Cottage Industry' scale because of the minimal/marginal market.

Horses for courses-

And '30sbound'- the deeper you delve, the more you read on this Forum, your tastes will surely change and your justification for spending bigger bucks or finding vintage hats will develop. If you're looking for a vintage style hat with appropriate proportions and trim, you can find them in the area of modern hats. The quality surely doesn't match the vintage but they're out there and affordable and probably come with a warranty and customers' priveledges...
You can get exactly what you want but your tastes and pocket depth will decide where you buy your hat.

B
T

 

[BellyTank]

Zohar- the modern hat companies couldn't turn a profit where they don't have a market. Nobody (retailers/wholesalers)could afford to have these 'high grade' hats in stock, on the shelf, in every size and colour. It would have to be a custom line of production and I'm sure the big companies would prefer not to do so. Wholesaling big stock numbers is how they make their turnover.

B
T

 

[jamespowers]

Zohar- the modern hat companies couldn't turn a profit where they don't have a market. Nobody (retailers/wholesalers)could afford to have these 'high grade' hats in stock, on the shelf, in every size and colour. It would have to be a custom line of production and I'm sure the big companies would prefer not to do so. Wholesaling big stock numbers is how they make their turnover.

If this truly were the case then how would you explain Cervo, Panizza, Guerra, Borsalino, Christy's, Herbert Johnson, Locke and Company and a dozen others that produce high dollar hats and still seem to stay in business?
All they make are high end hats. These are not even high quality but they are high price. They could produce a high quality hat at a high price. Some would argue that they do now but not when compared to what they made before.
If the hat industry in the US were to die, there would still be manufacturers all over the world and particularly in Europe that would fill the gap. Heck even the French still produce the Mossant.

Regards to all,

J

 

[fedoralover]

Well this turned into a lively debate and I will agree with both Besdor and BT on a few of the points they are making. However, lets get to the real point in hand. The vast majority of people buying fedora's in the world today do not log on to this forum. They will surely keep the average hat store in business.

My point was that when someone comes here to get advice about buying fedora's they will get the truth as far as I am able to tell it. And the truth is, the off the shelf hats are for the most part not worth the money.

That being said, would you have preferred me to tell the new guy to go out and buy one just so these places can stay in business? I don't think you would really want me or anyone else to do that.

How many new fedora's have you guys invested in? I have bought my share of Akubra's as they are one of the few I'll endorse. Now no offense meant Besdor, but I know you buy a lot of vintage fedora's off ebay cause I've seen your handle many many times. So you also recognize that vintage is better, so why should I not advise a new guy to do the same as you do or me or many others here?

That is the purpose of coming here, to get the straight scoop. But if people are obliged to buy the new ones to support the hatco's of the world, by all means you are entitled to do so. But I won't do it and I won't advise anyone else to.

regards fedoralover

 

[besdor]

BEAVER BODIES FOR 20.00 .NO WAY JOSE . RABBIT BODIES FROM TONAK (A BIG SUPPLIER ) ARE AT LEAST 18.00 AND UP . REMEMBER , THE EURO IS A BIG FACTOR . BODIES FROM PORTUGAL ARE EVEN MORE MONEY BECAUSE OF THE BEAVER CONTENT .
THE CHINESE ARE STARTING TO GET INTO THE BUSINESS OF MAKING FUR FELT . YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF STUFF FROM CHINA SOON. IF YOU GUYS OUT THERE THINK YOU'VE SEEN CRAP , JUST WAIT . I WOULNT LET MY DOG WEAR THESE HATS . I SAW ONE WESTERN HAT FROM CHINA THAT WAS MADE FROM FUR FELT . NOT ONLY WAS HAT HAT BAD , BUT AS I TOOK THE HAT OUT OF THE BOX , THE BAND FELL OFF!! THEY ARE GLUING ON THE BANDS THERE .

 

[fedoralover]

Besdor, we have members here who are hatters and can indeed buy the bodies from Winchester and Portugal for those prices.

regards fedoralover

 

[Nathan Flowers]

You're right, all beaver bodies from Winchester are $43.50. I'm sure you can get blends for less. Rabbit bodies start at $16 and $18. Even if places like Hatco made hats from these rabbit bodies, and sold them for $85, they would still make plenty of money, and people would have much higher quality hats.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

I should add that these prices are what we're being told by hatters on the board.


I surely don't want hat retailers, especially the smaller ones to go out of business. The more hats that are being worn, the better. I just think that larger companies can do better than what they're doing now.

 

[besdor]

I GUESS THEY ARE GREEDY . I KNOW THAT HATCO IS BUYING A LOT OF BODIES FROM A PLACE IN COLUMBIA SA ,SO YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT THE PROFIT IS. NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME OF THE COPANIES ARE STARTING TO PROUCE HATS (WESTERNS ) IN MEXICO .
BUT THE LITTLE GUYS THAT ARE MAKING CUSTOM HATS ARE ALSO MAKING A NICE BUCK ON THE HATS . THERE IS A CERTAIN WELL KNOWN CUSTOM HAT MAKER THAT I WAS TOLD IS SUPPOSEDLY USING BEAVER BODIES AND IS CHARGING 350.00 TO 400.00 A HAT . SHOULD HE SELL HIS HATS FOR 125.00? HE WONT AND SO WONT HATCO OR BORSALINO AS WELL .

 

[BellyTank]

JP, as you might have guessed given the context, I was talking about the middle market, affordable/reasonable priced hats, not really the high end- as we were talking about 'yer local Hatter' (not yours JP)and I was including Europe in my discussion, as I am in Europe, not just the USA market.
If the 'Global', 'everyday' hat market disappeared- then there would be no felters in business- at least not on a scale where prices of high grade bodies would be affordable. It seems like the bulk of the fur-felt comes from Europe and is partially processed there(here). Winchester use a bunch of European fur.

B
T

 

[Aaron Hats]

Companies (in any industry) need to appeal to the widest possible market they can. That's what Hatco, Bollman and most others do by making the hats they make. That's also what I do as a retailer. That's how I'm going to stay in business.

I think everyone agrees that vintage hats are great but probably 99.9% of first time hat buyers don't know their hat size. That other .01% gets lucky and guesses the right size. You could buy five hats off ebay before you found one that fit right but you walk into a hat store and you'll get personal service and advice on fit, color and style. Try getting that service from an ebay seller when most of them describe a fedora as a "gangsta" hat.

Modern hats are not junk. I can say this a thousand times and I'm not going to convince most of you that I'm right. That's ok though. Modern hats serve a very valuable service by introducing people to the headwear styles that are available today.

This is just one retailers perspective. Like I said, I don't expect to convert anybody here. I visit this forum because I like the hat talk and I learn something new from time to time not to try and get new business.

Just my two cents.

 

[DanielJones]

Gentlemen. I think what 30sBound is looking for is something to give him a good start. Now we all know that there are many hat makers out there that produce a lot of bunk. That's a given. But some of the hat makers like Stetson, Beaver Brand and Dobbs produce a nice wearable fedora for a reasonable price. Akubra makes a very servicable lid for the price as well. They make a good starter hat that looks nice, wears well and don't fall apart. I own a few of these and they are very serviceable. I have worn them in the snow & rain without the hat falling apart. Basically because I take care of them once the day is done to prevent them from falling apart.
Places like Miller Hats, The Village Hat Shop, Noggin Tops & Peters Bros. sell many of these hats at these reasonable prices. Like I said before, 30sBound is looking for a good start. I was in the same position as he a while back. And I did buy a few of these hats in a small hat shop in Verginia City, and am quite happy with those purchases. Then I progressed to buying a couple of vintage fedoras like Adam hats & a Pilgrim fedoras from ebay, and I still look for vintage lids there. But then I also progressed into the realm of the custom hatter. I have the champaign taste with the bee pocket book. So my shopping lead me to Camtown Hats and Adventurebilt. Of course if I did have the scratch I would also invest in a Tom Hirt hat as well. He makes predominantly western hats, but also has the blocks to make fedoras.
So, if it is a good start one is looking for then the places like The Village Hat Shop & Hats Direct are just that. A starting place, not the finish. From there, the only logical step is up. With plenty of information that this forum can provide one can find exactly what one needs within ones price range at the time.
Now, don't get me wrong, I would never indorse something like a Dorfman as an every day wearer. At best they are a novelty hat for kids and adult costuming. But if you can afford to get the custom right from the gate, then by all means do so. But if your monitary means are a tad limited then go for the Stetson, Beaver Brand or what may please you from the beginning until you can afford that custom.
I hope that this little rant helps clear the water a bit.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Why are you shouting, bed sore?

 

[besdor]

THANK YOU AARON . AT LEAST AS AN OWNER YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WITHOUT SUPORTING YOUR LOCAL HATTER , THEN THIS BUSINESS IS ADIOS . AS IT IS THERE ARE PROBABLY ONLY 50 DECENT HAT STORES LEFT IN THE USA AND CANDA . THATS DOWN BY ABOUT 95 % FROM 50 YEARS AGO . I'M SURE YOU WOULD LOVE TO SELL HIGH END HATS ALL DAY BUT THATS NOT THE CASE ANYMORE !!