When did the penny drop?

[the hairy bloke]

A rather fundamental question, I suppose:

At what point did the German military leadership begin to think that they had lost the War?

And what plans had they in place to do anything about it?

 

[Big J]

A rather fundamental question, I suppose:

At what point did the German military leadership begin to think that they had lost the War?

And what plans had they in place to do anything about it?

I can't believe that the Wehrmacht ever thought that Hitler was a such a military genius as to be giving any orders. After all, didn't they think it odd that the little corporal didn't save the nation during WW1? Come to think of it, didn't any of them think it odd that Hitler had only been a corporal if he really had such massive talent?

I can only assume that German military leadership was at no point 'thinking', and from the moment Hitler stole power, they believed that they should say 'yes' to everything, and abdicate responsibility for the sake of an easy life.

 

[Metatron]

For the realistic, I suspect the moment war was declared on the US, with the channel front still unresolved while the Soviet Union was being invaded.

For the more optimistic, probably around 1943: Stalingrad, Italy changing sides.

 

[Otter]

I would suspect by winter of '42 the High Command must have begun to realise that the writing was on the wall, the war had become unwinable. By Kursk it must have been becoming obvious to the common soldier. For a lot of the committed Nazis I honestly think that some of them were still believing in a victory right up to the point the Red Army came knocking on the door to Berlin.

 

[p51]

I can't believe that the Wehrmacht ever thought that Hitler was a such a military genius as to be giving any orders.

When they were winning everywhere they went, I'm sure they were just fine with things. I've talked with plenty of Whermacht vets over the years and almost all of them were just fine with the war... when Germany was still doing well.
I've been told by several vets that the defeat at Stalingrad was the moment many of them realized that maybe this war wasn't going to go Germany's way in the long run after all.

Come to think of it, didn't any of them think it odd that Hitler had only been a corporal if he really had such massive talent?

Worked for Napoleon for a while. Just sayin'...

 

[Stearmen]

Worked for Napoleon for a while. Just sayin'...

Napoleon was never an actual Corporal, or any other enlisted rank for that mater! Also, he was 5"6" tall, average for the time.

 

[Stanley Doble]

"I can only assume that German military leadership was at no point 'thinking', and from the moment Hitler stole power, they believed that they should say 'yes' to everything, and abdicate responsibility for the sake of an easy life. "

Or life. period. Study the Nazi takeover of Germany and you will find Hitler was never elected to anything, but never hesitated to destroy anyone who stood in his way, including other Nazis.

There were several attempts on his life by highly placed military and civil officials who knew his policies were destroying Germany but who knew there was no way to change his mind, or get rid of him short of killing him.

Timeline of 35 failed attempts to assassinate Hitler

http://assassinationinfo.com/Attempt...r/timeline.htm

Ironically what all the world could not do, Hitler did himself. Kill Hitler.

PS Notice that after Hitler secured power and after the beginning of the war in 1939, almost all the assassins are army officers, have the aristocratic 'von' before their names, or both.

 

[Stanley Doble]

According to a book I read recently, that was written in 1938, Hitler had to liquidate the SA to secure support from the big landowners, the military establishment and the big industrialists. He knew they barely tolerated him, and that if they wanted to get rid of him they could. Hitler's position was never as secure as you would think, in spite of the propaganda of his time and since.

The author pointed out that as of 1938 Hitler had killed more Nazis than Jews. He put the figure at 1731 for the SA alone.

 

[pawineguy]

Ironically it was Hitler who was the first to put in writing that the war at some point would be unwinnable. Somewhere around 1937 or 1938, if my memory is correct, he was pointing out to his military and economic planners that Germany needed to fight by 1939, when they would hold a military advantage. To paraphrase:

1. Germany was quickly re-arming while the rest of the world wasn't, so the sooner they got to war, the greater their technological and armament advantage.
2. By 1943 or so, Hitler knew the allies would have caught up, so he needed them to surrender by that point, or to achieve all of his aims so overwhelmingly that they never entered the war. (especially the U.S.)

He spelled all of this out in a memo to explain why the army must move so quickly to re-arm. It should be noted that even by 1939, Italy was begging Hitler for 2 to 3 more years to prepare for war. Some of his own generals, at the end of August in the days preceding the invasion of Poland were openly discussing the war being unwinnable, especially those who had expertise in supply and logistics. Some of the staff did expect France to invade in the West with their 100 infantry divisions, and even with the Soviets on the sidelines, fighting in Poland and Western Germany / France was considered impossible to do simultaneously. Even Hitler understood that to be the case, and "Blitzkrieg" was not just a new type of warfare, but was necessitated by the assumption that he would then have to quickly turn his armies back around once the Poles were defeated in order to face the inevitable French invasion.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Nobody wanted war but Hitler. I'm not sure he wanted war but he certainly took advantage of everyone else's desire for peace. After WW1 everybody else was a pacifist or at least, had an appreciation of what total war meant.

Hitler took chances that gave his top brass the heeby jeebies. But he always knew how far to go too far, and how to weasel his way out of trouble. Up until he invaded Poland and forced England's hand.

Hitler never wanted war with England. He wanted war with Poland. He could beat Poland. In 1939 and possibly as late as 1941 he hoped to avoid war with England. In May of 1941 Rudolph Hesse flew to England to negotiate an end to the war. Hesse was Hitler's right hand man and if he was not sent by Hitler, certainly believed he was carrying out Hitler's wishes.

 

[pawineguy]

Nobody wanted war but Hitler. I'm not sure he wanted war but he certainly took advantage of everyone else's desire for peace. After WW1 everybody else was a pacifist or at least, had an appreciation of what total war meant.

Hitler took chances that gave his top brass the heeby jeebies. But he always knew how far to go too far, and how to weasel his way out of trouble. Up until he invaded Poland and forced England's hand.

Hitler never wanted war with England. He wanted war with Poland. He could beat Poland. In 1939 and possibly as late as 1941 he hoped to avoid war with England. In May of 1941 Rudolph Hesse flew to England to negotiate an end to the war. Hesse was Hitler's right hand man and if he was not sent by Hitler, certainly believed he was carrying out Hitler's wishes.

I think if you summed up what the general staff wanted, it would be a rebuilt and rearmed military, something for them to rule over again, but not to use.

 

[Stearmen]

"I can only assume that German military leadership was at no point 'thinking', and from the moment Hitler stole power, they believed that they should say 'yes' to everything, and abdicate responsibility for the sake of an easy life. "

Or life. period. Study the Nazi takeover of Germany and you will find Hitler was never elected to anything, but never hesitated to destroy anyone who stood in his way, including other Nazis.

There were several attempts on his life by highly placed military and civil officials who knew his policies were destroying Germany but who knew there was no way to change his mind, or get rid of him short of killing him.

Timeline of 35 failed attempts to assassinate Hitler

http://assassinationinfo.com/Attempt...r/timeline.htm

Ironically what all the world could not do, Hitler did himself. Kill Hitler.

PS Notice that after Hitler secured power and after the beginning of the war in 1939, almost all the assassins are army officers, have the aristocratic 'von' before their names, or both.

Actually, that is revisionist history! Yes, Hitler never won 51% of the electorate, but that is a moot point. in 1933, his party, the NSDAP won 43,9%, the highest ever between 1919 and 1933, second was the Social Democrats with 37,8% right after the WWI. All Hitler had to do was form a coalition which he did, since the parliament changed the rules with Ermächtigungsgesetz. Then impress Hindenburg, which wasn't very hard and the rest is history! The German people cheered him on, never even tried to stop him. My own country has put Presidents in charge who were not elected by the people, (2000) rules are rules!

 

[Stanley Doble]

In early February, the Nazis "unleashed a campaign of violence and terror that dwarfed anything seen so far." Storm troopers began attacking trade union and Communist Party (KPD) offices and the homes of left-wingers.[1] In the second half of February, the violence was extended to the Social Democrats, with gangs of brownshirts breaking up Social Democrat meetings and beating up their speakers and audiences. Issues of Social Democratic newspapers were banned.[2] Twenty newspapers of the Centre Party, a party of Catholic Germans, were banned in mid-February for criticizing the new government. Government officials known to be Centre Party supporters were dismissed from their offices, and stormtroopers violently attacked party meetings in Westphalia.[3]

Six days before the scheduled election date, the German parliament building was set alight in the Reichstag fire, allegedly by the Dutch Communist Marinus van der Lubbe. This event reduced the popularity of the KPD, and enabled Hitler to persuade President Hindenburg to pass the Reichstag Fire Decree as an emergency decree according to Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. This emergency law removed many civil liberties and allowed the arrest of Ernst Thälmann and 4,000 leaders and members of the KPD[4] shortly before the election, suppressing the Communist vote and consolidating the position of the Nazis. The KPD was "effectively outlawed from 28 February 1933", although it was not completely banned until the day after the election.[5] While at that time not as heavily oppressed as the Communists, the Social Democrats were also restricted in their actions, as the party's leadership had already fled to Prague and many members were acting only from the underground. Hence, the fire is widely believed to have had a major effect on the outcome of the election. As replacement, and for 10 years to come, the new parliament used the Kroll Opera House for its meetings.

A "combination of terror, repression and propaganda was mobilized in every... community, large and small, across the land."[6] To further ensure the outcome of the vote would be a Nazi majority, Nazi organizations "monitored" the vote process.

From WIkipedia's description of the 1933 election. This is only hitting the highlights.

 

[Stanley Doble]

It would be wrong to say everyone in Germany loved Hitler ( see list of 35 assassination attempts). It would be equally wrong to say everyone hated him (see cheering crowds everywhere he went). Human nature is not that simple. There were millions of people with all shades of opinion. Hitler used every trick of politics propaganda and intimidation to get and keep power. Even so his Reich was hardly a walk in the park. He was under tremendous pressure from the time he got into politics. This may help explain his ever increasing drug use and shortness of temper.

 

[Big J]

It would be wrong to say everyone in Germany loved Hitler ( see list of 35 assassination attempts). It would be equally wrong to say everyone hated him (see cheering crowds everywhere he went). Human nature is not that simple. There were millions of people with all shades of opinion. Hitler used every trick of politics propaganda and intimidation to get and keep power. Even so his Reich was hardly a walk in the park. He was under tremendous pressure from the time he got into politics. This may help explain his ever increasing drug use and shortness of temper.

I disagree with you on this Stanley. Human nature is simple; people want things to be 'better' and 'different' but don't want to take any responsibility (death camps, for jews? But I didn't know anything about it!) then this guy Hitler rolls up and basically says 'Leave it all up to me. I'm a strong leader. I'll decide everything, you all just do as your told, and don't answer back, and everything will be fine'. And the people were so happy to have a strong leader who let them abdicate responsibility, that they did as they were told. Except that it didn't work out alright in the end. And they all said 'but I was only following orders', (and civilization decided that that wasn't a good enough excuse).

It's really very simple; most people are selfish and weak. They want to be led, they don't want to have the responsibility for making their own choices. It could happen anywhere, at any time.

 

[Stanley Doble]

But they did answer back. The opposition to the Nazis was strong, at it was put down with brutality.

And how do you explain 35 assassination attempts? Some by ordinary working class Germans and some by members of the upper class?

 

[Big J]

But they did answer back. The opposition to the Nazis was strong, at it was put down with brutality.

And how do you explain 35 assassination attempts? Some by ordinary working class Germans and some by members of the upper class?

35 failed assassination attempts V's allied losses defeating Hitler? Thanks for nothing guys.

 

[MisterCairo]

But they did answer back. The opposition to the Nazis was strong, at it was put down with brutality.

And how do you explain 35 assassination attempts? Some by ordinary working class Germans and some by members of the upper class?

35 people attempted to kill Hitler.

Remind us, how many millions did not?

Neither Churchill nor FDR received 100% of the vote. No one has suggested Hitler was universally loved in Germany at any point, and no one has suggested he faced no opposition, and no one has suggested he did not use strong-arm tactics to obtain and keep power.

No one can suggest, however, that he used only violent means to get into office, or that he did not rely on and receive the support of what any reasonable person would call the democratic processes in place in Germany at the relevant time.

 

[Edward]

German political culture of the time is all too often forgotten. The notion of 'democracy' was still very new in Germany. When the crash hit in 1929, it was a scant decade old. It wasn't hard to encourage people to abandon the notion of democracy for something familiar, which they associated with 'better times'.

 

[Stanley Doble]

A rather fundamental question, I suppose:

At what point did the German military leadership begin to think that they had lost the War?

And what plans had they in place to do anything about it?

That was the question. The answer is, Hitler never had the unquestioning support of everybody, especially the career soldiers that made up the high command. But, he was not an easy guy to reason with. At some point, certain elements decided he had to go, and if he wouldn't step down gracefully he needed a push.

When exactly this took place is hard to say but there were 35 KNOWN assassination plots, many of them by highly placed officials with everything to lose.

So, the answer seems to be that a lot of people saw his policies from the first, as a disaster waiting to happen. But, Stalingrad is usually taken as the turning point. Whether they recongnized it at the time or not.