What modern invention/innovation do you wish had *never* been developed?

[LizzieMaine]

Broccoli *does* make me gag. Cruciferous vegetables are disgusting. But I also hate cake.

 

[bbshriver]

This is an oxymoron. A remnant of the fact that too many out there think that khakis and a polo shirt or jeans and bowling shoes are "business casual". Apparently many guys now think just remembering to put pants on qualifies as "business casual".



This observation is spot on. You used to be expected to behave differently in a professional office than you did hanging out in the backyard drinking beer with your buddies. That line is almost completely gone now, and it's direct result of people losing the sense of "this is a place of business".

As I said, "business casual" = khaki and polo (I hate polos, button down for me), and "casual" = jeans... basically the only difference.

But again... if jeans are good enough for friday why not good enough for everyday? Conversely if jeans are not good enough Mon-Thurs why are they OK on Friday? Or is it just OK to be lazy in general on Friday?

Here I know a few people to wear a tie, but no jacket, and a few wear a jacket but no tie. I don't think I've seen anyone in both (excepting of course, interviewees)

 

[jamespowers]

Well, anectdotal evidence says just the opposite. Just ask anyone who perfers casual and they'll tell you that they're more creative and productive when dressed down. But the facts say otherwise.

We both know they are lying to themselves and others. lol lol
Ordered dress equals ordered mind.

 

[jamespowers]

Most people in general say this. Like most children say broccoli and carrots make them gag and they can only stomach ice cream and chocolate cake.

Yeah that gets old after they are over 2 years old though---in both cases. :doh:

 

[sheeplady]

I don't know, I always wrote the best between the hours of midnight and six in the morning.

I could write twice the amount and it wasn't horrible.

Baring that, I was second most productive at a place that was not my house.

I don't think what you're wearing matters as much as your focus. Now I'm not focused at home when my daughter is roaming the house bent on utter destruction.

Edited to add: my oncology office apparently has a program (not sure what to call it) where they have a sign up that says "today is jeans day! Our employees are wearing their jeans to give to a good cause!" This means to wear jeans that day the employee had to make a donation. I get that this raises money, but it hits me as employers pushing employees to donate to specific causes (mainly cancer research). The sign is up almost everyday.

I must admit it bothers me a bit to see nurses and doctors in jeans on the job. I don't know, I at least expect scrubs.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've been writing professionally for over thirty years, and have at one time or another written while wearing everything from a ragged flannel nightie to an evening gown, and I can honestly say I'm most comfortable and most productive wearing a rumpled cotton housedress. The accoutrements that go along with women's business wear -- stockings, foundation garments, dress shoes, etc -- are uncomfortable enough to be distracting when you need to be focused on what you're writing. Dressing up is fine when one is on stage before an audience doing a presentation, but for me it's of absolutely no benefit whatever when doing the actual creative act of writing. I suspect any study claiming otherwise is funded by somebody trying to sell formal businesswear.

 

[Stearmen]

I've never bought the argument "well, Bill Gates is a slob and he's a billionaire, so that means I should be a slob too". Something about causality, or lack thereof.

So if I put on an expensive three peace suit, I am going to be a Billionaire? Some people like to be told what to wear every day, some people don't, there are creative people in both camps.

 

[Zombie_61]

I've never bought the argument "well, Bill Gates is a slob and he's a billionaire, so that means I should be a slob too". Something about causality, or lack thereof.

The flaw with this "argument" is that the people who use it have gotten it backwards--Bill Gates can dress however he likes because he's a billionaire.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As I said, "business casual" = khaki and polo (I hate polos, button down for me), and "casual" = jeans... basically the only difference.

Khakis and polos are NOT business casual. That you think they are is part of the problem.

But again... if jeans are good enough for friday why not good enough for everyday? Conversely if jeans are not good enough Mon-Thurs why are they OK on Friday? Or is it just OK to be lazy in general on Friday?

Employers are basically saying it's OK to be lazy on Fridays. Employers started having casual Fridays and allowing business casual as a "perk" for employees. Employees like it because they like being lazy.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I've been writing professionally for over thirty years, and have at one time or another written while wearing everything from a ragged flannel nightie to an evening gown, and I can honestly say I'm most comfortable and most productive wearing a rumpled cotton housedress. The accoutrements that go along with women's business wear -- stockings, foundation garments, dress shoes, etc -- are uncomfortable enough to be distracting when you need to be focused on what you're writing. Dressing up is fine when one is on stage before an audience doing a presentation, but for me it's of absolutely no benefit whatever when doing the actual creative act of writing. I suspect any study claiming otherwise is funded by somebody trying to sell formal businesswear.

Of course there are those who work better in solitude, whether wearing eveningwear or buck naked. But in general, in an office environment where there are multiple people working, people are less productive when wearing their pajamas than they are wearing traditional businesswear. On a side note, women don't wear stockings anymore, even when wearing a business suit.

 

[HudsonHawk]

So if I put on an expensive three peace suit, I am going to be a Billionaire? Some people like to be told what to wear every day, some people don't, there are creative people in both camps.

My point exactly. Bill Gates is a billionaire because he's brilliant, driven and completely ruthless. But 99.9% of the people working in your average office are none of those things, and take work more seriously and are more productive when they're at "work", not lying on the couch eating potato chips.

 

[bbshriver]

Khakis and polos are NOT business casual. That you think they are is part of the problem.



Employers are basically saying it's OK to be lazy on Fridays. Employers started having casual Fridays and allowing business casual as a "perk" for employees. Employees like it because they like being lazy.

What is "supposed" to be "business casual" then? I'm young yet but I've worked in 3 states, 3 "office" environments and one that was less "officy" (http://www.natc-ht.com/) all of which have said their dress code is "business casual"

At the NATC "business casual" meant jeans and a non-advertising shirt... most of the work was outdoors or in workshops, I usually was wearing coveralls over whatever I wore, but the "official" dress code was still called "business casual"

My next which was a corporate HQ job "business casual" was no jeans ever, and a nice shirt (no "casual friday")

Then back to another test center where it was "business casual" no jeans except Friday

Then move to NC test center, and "business casual" Jeans are OK all the time

Then they changed the dress code back to no jeans except Friday.

So it's not what I think business casual is, that's what's codified by the companies I've worked for. That's why I don't like the term business casual... in my experience it is not a set definition. "Business attire" is understood to mean a suit and tie, "black tie", "white tie" etc are all actual dress codes. "Business casual" in my experience is generally applied to anything that's more dressed up than pajamas or garage wear..

 

[HudsonHawk]

What is "supposed" to be "business casual" then?

"Business casual" is one step below "business", which means dress trousers, button-up collared shirts, preferably at least a sport coat, perhaps a tie, but usually not mandatory. Khakis and polo shirts are not indicated. Certainly not jeans. If you were allowed to wear jeans, the dress code was considerably less formal than "business casual". They may have called it that, but it was not.

And this gets back to another point...it's to the point nowadays where for many guys, khakis and a polo are the dressiest thing they own, and they consider anything above cargo shorts and flip flops to be "dressy".

 

[LizzieMaine]

Of course there are those who work better in solitude, whether wearing eveningwear or buck naked. But in general, in an office environment where there are multiple people working, people are less productive when wearing their pajamas than they are wearing traditional businesswear. On a side note, women don't wear stockings anymore, even when wearing a business suit.

I'd suggest that writers are more productive when they aren't working in any kind of a corporate environment, regardless of what they're wearing.

As for women going bare-legged in business clothes, I'd think that would be an intolerable act of casual informality in an office. It was the last time I worked in such an environment.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As for women going bare-legged in business clothes, I'd think that would be an intolerable act of casual informality in an office. It was the last time I worked in such an environment.

It's gone completely the other way around, where a women in stockings is considered to look more like a streetwalker than a vice president.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We truly live in degenerate times.

In all seriousness, though, women going without hosiery in an office setting is akin to men wearing something like polo shirts and khaki pants -- a style traditionally associated with an informal, not-work environment. Why is one acceptable to the "gotta dress up at work" crowd and not the other?

During the summer I wear cotton dresses, ankle socks, and saddle shoes in my office. And somehow, the work gets done. Or do the wardrobe rules apply only in the "corporate" setting? If so, where is the line drawn between "small town hick job where people show up barefoot and in overalls" and "big corporate job where you got to wear The Right Kind Of Clothes to be productive?"

 

[Feraud]

The flaw with this "argument" is that the people who use it have gotten it backwards--Bill Gates can dress however he likes because he's a billionaire.

Unfortunately people tend to get a lot of these ideas backwards.

 

[HudsonHawk]

We truly live in degenerate times.

In all seriousness, though, women going without hosiery in an office setting is akin to men wearing something like polo shirts and khaki pants -- a style traditionally associated with an informal, not-work environment. Why is one acceptable to the "gotta dress up at work" crowd and not the other?

Probably because women scream bloody murder at the suggestion they wear hosiery. Apparently it's both very uncomfortable and degrading toward women. I don't know, I've only worn them once, and only because I was young and needed the money.

During the summer I wear cotton dresses, ankle socks, and saddle shoes in my office. And somehow, the work gets done. Or do the wardrobe rules apply only in the "corporate" setting? If so, where is the line drawn between "small town hick job where people show up barefoot and in overalls" and "big corporate job where you got to wear The Right Kind Of Clothes to be productive?"

The general guideline applies to an office environment of multiple non-owner type employees. Obviously not every environment is the same.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The general guideline applies to an office environment of multiple non-owner type employees. Obviously not every environment is the same.

Hasn't ever been an issue for me, and every office I've worked in has had multiple non-owners running about. Even in the '90s the GM at the radio station liked to wear an aqua sport coat over a white polo shirt, acid-washed jeans, and boat shoes with no socks. And anybody who showed up here at the theatre wearing full formal business dress would be assumed to be some kind of auditor. At the last meeting of our board of directors, mauve-colored golf shorts were au courant for the men. And somehow things got accomplished.

Don't get me wrong, I find much, if not most, of modern fashion to be repellent -- but not because Traditional Wear has some kind of mystic power to turn us all into overachieving ubermensch. I find modern fashion to be repellent simply because most of it looks ridiculous.

I saw a prominent local attorney the other day, swankiing down the street in a seersucker suit -- it's after Labor Day, horrors -- with the coat open and the pants cinched firmly around his hips. Over the pants his enormous belly bounced and jiggled like he was pushing a wheelbarrow full of Jell-O. He might have been wearing "proper business dress," but he looked like an idiot. At least an untucked polo shirt would have done a better job of concealing his avoirdupois.

 

[sheeplady]

As for women going bare-legged in business clothes, I'd think that would be an intolerable act of casual informality in an office. It was the last time I worked in such an environment.

It depends on the office.

Several offices I know you would not dare show up not in hose. At least no more than you'd show up in a suit that wasn't one of a few select colors or show up in open toed shoes or show up in a sundress. (And in some offices, even a pant suit for the ladies. The pant suit is changing though.) But these offices are few and far between. There's still a select number of colleges at universities that follow very strict dress codes for their professors (I've taught a course in one). Jeans aren't acceptable for instructors or TAs in the majority of programs I've been or worked in. (The exception was outdoorsy fields, like ecology, where jeans were often worn because you were working in the mud.)

I think there's some regional variation in this too. When I was out in California on business, I got some pretty rude looks and commentary running around in a conservative fitted black suit and stockings. It was a very freaky experience, and echos the "streetwalker" mentality HudsonHawk mentioned. Interestingly enough I was meeting with suit-clad people mostly from elsewhere in the world, but they were mostly men and I don't think subjected to the same regional "rules."

But now that I think about it, the last time I got dressed up business casual for a funeral (black knee length dress, blazer, stockings, makeup) I did get one very rude look of the "streetwalker" variety (not at the funeral). So that might be changing here too.

Probably because women scream bloody murder at the suggestion they wear hosiery. Apparently it's both very uncomfortable and degrading toward women.

Panty hose is the instrument of the devil for so many reasons. If these women wore actual stockings with a garter belt, I doubt they'd think hose was as bad.

I hate panty hose, it's like being stuffed in a polyester sausage case that no matter what size you buy, it will always be too short, get your slip caught in the back (or more horrifying, your skirt), and begin a slow descent towards the floor every time you adjust them.