What makes a hat expensive?

[alanfgag]

Here is the link to the thread for the Churchill Beaver/Vicuna 100. This hat was a Neiman-Marcus offering in response to the postwar hundred dollar hat category that included offerings from Stetson, Resistol and many Hat Corporation of America brands. The amount of vicuna wool in the felt is unstated - with the rarity and price of the material, one might guess it to be very small. The feel of the felt is unusual - very fine and soft, even though the hat overall is quite stiff. There are some photos on the thread comparing the hat to a Stetson 100 that I had at the time.

Though I know we do these things routinely, it is hard to imagine killing these animals for their pelts. Probably the closest we come to killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

 

[gtdean48]

...

Though I know we do these things routinely, it is hard to imagine killing these animals for their pelts. Probably the closest we come to killing the goose that lays the golden egg.

They are sheared like llamas & alpacas = "...before taking them into small tents where they're sheared."

 

[alanfgag]

They are sheared like llamas & alpacas = "...before taking them into small tents where they're sheared."

My comment was directed towards Steve's note:

Side Note: Die Hutmacherkunst: ein Handbuch für den Klein- und Grossbetrieb (By Carl Bortfeldt 1902) mentions Vicuna pelts (not sheared wool) which is interesting.

... though it appears that the vicuna trade is more carefully regulated and protected in Peru today and the animal has rebounded well from very low numbers earlier in the 20th century.

 

[gtdean48]

My comment was directed towards Steve's note:



... though it appears that the vicuna trade is more carefully regulated and protected in Peru today and the animal has rebounded well from very low numbers earlier in the 20th century.

I'm sure, like sheep are eventually used for mutton, the vicuna are harvested for meat & pelts at some point...no difference that milk cows, etc...

 

[alanfgag]

I'm sure, like sheep are eventually used for mutton, the vicuna are harvested for meat & pelts at some point...no difference that milk cows, etc...

Maybe so, though they may be harder to catch and, at 18,000 feet elevation, harder to wrassle.

 

[Brother cavefish]

the person buying it

 

[feltfan]

Thanks, but in this case Sean at Pork Pie Hatters has been assisting me and I'm going to give him the sale.

Meaning no offense, but I'm unclear why anyone would spend that kind of money
(either one) on a new Borsalino. What makes it expensive in both cases is the history of
the name, which, sadly, has nothing to do with the mediocre product put out by those
who bought the name.

Spend the same money with Art Fawcett, Black Sheep, etc. and you will end up with
an outstanding hat made-to-measure for your head, with exactly the features you want.
Better felt, longer lasting, more comfortable. A dramatic difference.

 

[Banky]

Feltfan does have a point. As someone who cleans dozens of hats of varying vintages from the late 1800's to present on a weekly basis, I can say with confidence borsalino relies heavily on their name and past history of quality. They do not make them like they used to. That being said, to each their own and if you want it get it but there are better quality options for less money.

 

[Tomasso]

Meaning no offense, but I'm unclear why anyone would spend that kind of money
(either one) on a new Borsalino.......Spend the same money with Art Fawcett, Black Sheep, etc. and you will end up with an outstanding hat made-to-measure for your head, with exactly the features you want. .

Well, there are some negative aspects to the bespoke process:

1.)Time. Bespoke can take weeks or even months for delivery. Some people need an item immediately and don't have the time to wait. Or they may simply not have the disposition to wait for an extended period.


2.)The effort required: The bespoke process entails a variety of details that need to be addressed and choices that must be made by the customer and that can be burdensome. To some, God is in the details, while to others, the devil is in the details. Ceding the responsiblilty for these decisions to the maker greatly diminishes the whole idea of bespoke, IMO.


3.)Predictable results: There is a real possibility that a bespoke commission will not meet the customer's expectations (real or imagined) either because of an error by the maker, miscommunication between customer and maker or a poor choice by the customer.

In short, an OTR purchase is faster, easier and has a more predictable result.


^^^^

The above is in reference to face-to-face transactions where one visits a store to make a selection or meets with a maker in person to discuss a commission.


I think that remote (online, phone, mail) purchases of OTR items are much more problematic but at least the mistakes can be returned.

IMO the remote bespoke model (promoted here on the FLounge ad nauseam) is deeply flawed and fraught with folly as returns on bespoke items are not accepted.

 

[tommyK]

I'm kind of with Tomasso on this in that someone new to hats may not have a fixed idea of what they like in a hat and a hat shop is just the thing to explore. And I don't think I've ever paid more than about $250 for a modern Borsalino (clue me into the custom maker that is that cheap and I'll give them some business).

That being said the Film and Alessandria, I think are good hats worth $250. The Belagio however is crap and to be avoided. I would be hard pressed to pay more than $300 for a Borsalino vintage or modern but to each his own.

 

[ManofKent]

I'm kind of with Tomasso on this in that someone new to hats may not have a fixed idea of what they like in a hat and a hat shop is just the thing to explore. And I don't think I've ever paid more than about $250 for a modern Borsalino (clue me into the custom maker that is that cheap and I'll give them some business).

That being said the Film and Alessandria, I think are good hats worth $250. The Belagio however is crap and to be avoided. I would be hard pressed to pay more than $300 for a Borsalino vintage or modern but to each his own.

Tommy I agree that when new to hats trying on hats is the ideal way (sadly, at least over here, bricks and mortar stores are a rarity). I've only tried the late production old factory Borso's so I can't comment on the quality of the modern ones. I have bought some modern production hats that in retrospect weren't great investments, and the money would have been better spent on custom hats, but then I wouldn't have had the learning experience, and what price do you put on that?

As to custom makers at around $250 there's Tim at Cane Rod Maker, Mike at NorthWest Hats and I think Falcon Park will also come in at under that...

 

[jhe888]

Vicuna fibers are even finer than cashmere, and it makes exceptionally soft and silky fabrics. As cashmere is to wool, vicuna is to cashmere.

I have no idea if it makes good felt. I might guess they added a little vicuna to more conventional felts as much to make them "extra deluxe" as anything else. But who knows, a 100% vicuna hat may be the bees knees even if did cost $5,000.

 

[tommyK]

Tommy I agree that when new to hats trying on hats is the ideal way (sadly, at least over here, bricks and mortar stores are a rarity). I've only tried the late production old factory Borso's so I can't comment on the quality of the modern ones. I have bought some modern production hats that in retrospect weren't great investments, and the money would have been better spent on custom hats, but then I wouldn't have had the learning experience, and what price do you put on that?

As to custom makers at around $250 there's Tim at Cane Rod Maker, Mike at NorthWest Hats and I think Falcon Park will also come in at under that...

Thanks ManofKent, I've about exhausted the mass produced hats that I would want with the possible exception of some of the new Stetsons that may happen. I'm going to start going to some of the fine custom makers for future hats. there is just some colors and ribbon treatments that you can only get custom made. That and my head's too big for most of the vintage hats I would want.

 

[Cheviot]

Once you put a well made hat on your head you will know the difference. if you had both of these hats on a table and pick each up with your hands your fingers would tell you the difference.

I just did this and you're exactly right. The more expensive hat is much lighter, has much more luxurious feeling felt and a much more supple leather is used for the sweatband. It's immediately obvious why it's more expensive just feeling it.

 

[TheDane]

I see some postulates about "the bespoke process", but none really well argumented. I have recently had the chance to inspect eight hats from the new Stetson line. Of them, eight should have been rejected by quality controle - some with very serious flaws. I wonder, how they manage to keep up such an error rate(?)

The Elvis down on the corner is just an impersonator. The real Elvis from Memphis is dead and gone. The Stetson, we know today, is just an impersonator. The real Stetson from Philadelphia is dead and gone. I prefer a vintage recording with the real Elvis - or a recording by an artist with his/her own contributions. As long as modern companies only have poor impersonations to offer, I prefer vintage or custom made hats. But again, different strokes for different folks

 

[RBH]

... I have recently had the chance to inspect eight hats from the new Stetson line. Of them, eight should have been rejected by quality controle - some with very serious flaws. I wonder, how they manage to keep up such an error rate(?)
.....

Wow Ole... 8 hats...What I would like to know is who would try and sell them with such flaws?
But if your selling to an uninformed public... you can get away with it.
But it is still wrong.

 

[TheDane]

Well, Ed showed the two he brought to Mike's shop. The Strat had an obvious ribbon-tacking error (an inter-stitch thread on the outside), and the Stetsonian had a very bulky neck-seam on the sweat. That's two. All six I saw at hatWRKS had more or less serious flaws/errors ... ribbon tacked too high on the crown, poor sweatband stitching (zig-zag just above, far above and on the breakline between crown and brim) and a single felt flaw.

The Stetsonians said $245 on their tags, but she told me, she had given up on that price, and that I could buy it for $225 - same as the Stratoliner. I thanked, but I would still have to re-sew either ribbon or sweat or both. I already had plenty hats to ship - and they arrived yesterday, btw ... and in great shape

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Ole I wear the Strat more often. In fact I wore it today.
QA is a hard task an Stetson needs to step it up. They have been spoiled by the cowboy market taking anything the produce.

 

[TheDane]

The stitching issue on your hat is nothing more than a small fix. You could eradicate that very easily. A very nice hat, indeed - but it's not satisfying, they let that sort of things pass.

 

[jlee562]

I didn't expect my Strat to be finished as well as a vintage hat anyway. Can Stetson improve? Absolutely. Have they already improved? By my estimation, yes.