What Is the Allure of Japanese Leather Jackets?

[Aloysius]

For me it's as simple as Eastman having the only real deal in their possession so the pattern is what it is. Anyone making a repro of an A-1 without an original in their hand isn't going to be able to make it as accurate.

Lewis doesn’t make one but Derek of Lewis has a few 1920s civi ones.

 

[Grayland]

Japanese jackets appeal to me as I'm 5'9 and 170 lbs. The (usually) shorter Japanese jackets work for my body type. I also find that they often have slimmer sleeves and higher armholes - which really make a jacket look custom made. They seem to be able to make a jacket that fits slim but allows easy movement. While I'm a solid 40, I find that I often take a size 42 in Japanese jackets.

I personally don't get caught up viewing stitches through a magnifying glass. As long as it isn't obvious from a few feet away, I'm okay with it.

OTR Japanese jackets seem to fit me better than custom made - but I would never buy new. They are simply too expensive IMO.

 

[Edward]

No, that's the old version. With patch pockets. This one was made recently, some years ago. It was a complete revision and the pattern was done over 60's I think Levi's or something like that. The year could be way off but a lot of work went into it. They had this girl working on it who got every tiny detail transferred to the leather version.

It's a really impressive jacket. The one I got that was made by Ken was the most complex Aero I've ever seen.

I'd have assumed the base jacket was pre-1960; when I interviewed Ken for The Chap a few years ago, he mentioned that he didn't care to reproduce anything post 1960 "because the sixties was when they started making crap" (great quote, from memory that one was flagged on one of the photos). Ken mentioned he'd long seen the Type III as a bit of an outlier, but had traced it to a late 50s model which put it within the 'nothing after 1959' timeframe.

No expertise myself, though I've always admired how well this blue leather version visually blurs the look between the traditional denim and the leather variants. One of these is not in my future, but that blue leather has a massive appeal to me for something else.

Question is... How do you define 'best'.

I own an Eastman A1 and even though it's a solid jacket I certainly wouldn't call it perfect in terms of construction quality. Some stitch lines are rather wobbly for instance. I'm sure there are Japanese a1 repros with neater stitching, but does that make them objectively better jackets?

I guess so if better means straight stitch lines. But the original 30s A1s probably didn't come with straight stitch lines either. Therefore one could argue that the Eastman is the better jacket because it's closer to original.

Point is... What does 'best' mean? Maybe there's not just one best of x, but several depending on your definition.

Indeed, what is accuracy? I've certainly seen some original A2s that were clearly rush-made on a Friday afternoon, wobbly stitching, pockets at different heights... not something many here would accept if they were passed off as reproduction...

Japanese products of all sorts end up with an element of prestige about them... they often might be of better quality than alternatives, but are they THAT much better? In Japan a lot of these products are 2-4x less in price than they are in the internationally, which I don't like, as it's not justifiable.

We're very far down the wormhole of subjectivity here, but it seems to me that 'Made in Japan' has developed a bit of a cult in the same way that at at time "Made in America" automatically was assumed by some to mean superior quality and/or authenticity. I love a lot of what I see coming out of Japan, but it's crazy money here in the UK; much of it would still be so even at half the price. One day I hope to make a trip to Japan with plenty of spending money, and I'll see whether I pick up a bunch of stuff there. A lot of it is, of course, shut out to me for sizing reasons. I'll never be a 34 waist again (at least not this side of some terrible prison or illness ordeal), unlike 90% of the Japanese trousers I see on sale which stop at a 34. As Chinese variations on the workwear and repro stuff appear, they're still a bit undersized for me in many of the ranges, though I hope that will change as the Western market expands.

People routinely flame Ken because Aero, in its A-2 repros, fixes a common mistake in the epaulette stitching of many assembly line originals. He argues (fairly, I think) that he's reproducing the pattern and the leathers, not the mistakes that occurred in wartime mass production.

Comes back to the question as to what a repro is again, doesn't it... I know I've seen originals so badly made that I would not buy a 100% repro of those particular models at any price. I have often mused on the idea of a contract repro based on individual examples given the potential for slight variations across mass-manufacturing, particularly when dealing with something like leather under wartime mass-production. For me, reproducing "mistakes" is much like creating the repairing artificial damage / wear - not desirable. Of course, that will vary if the object of the exercise is to reproduce a very specific jacket for a very specific screen/ reenactment purpose.

For me it's as simple as Eastman having the only real deal in their possession so the pattern is what it is. Anyone making a repro of an A-1 without an original in their hand isn't going to be able to make it as accurate.

At that level of quality to be honest none of the jackets is going to fall apart. It's aesthetics when it comes to stitching details to be fair.

The problem is that they have been raising the prices more and more over the years.

I don't inspect my jackets for mistakes or stitching details for example unless something is really visible to the eye or compromises integrity of construction I don't really care that much.

It's a rare occasion when we see an Eastman in these parts now. I've bought a couple over the years, but their new price has now climbed so high that it's just gone far beyond what is "worth it" to me, by my own subjective judgement. I did wonder if it was part of a commercial strategy to target the same market as some of the big £££ Japanese brands.

 

[Harris HTM]

ndeed, what is accuracy? I've certainly seen some original A2s that were clearly rush-made on a Friday afternoon, wobbly stitching, pockets at different heights... not something many here would accept if they were passed off as reproduction...

Isn't it a paradox? asking for a precise reproduction of the stitching flaw of the X seam at the epaulettes but meanwhile asking for custom sleeve and back length and veg tanned shinki leather? (I emphasise the word "paradox": I am not criticising people who do so).

 

[Edward]

Isn't it a paradox? asking for a precise reproduction of the stitching flaw of the X seam at the epaulettes but meanwhile asking for custom sleeve and back length and veg tanned shinki leather? (I emphasise the word "paradox": I am not criticising people who do so).

Right up there with the incident once witnessed at a big event where lots of re-enactors congregated: a fifty-plus year old man dressed as a BoB pilot criticising the accuracy of other people's "costumes" - or the other guy in his late forties who was very pleased with himself about how period-accurate his A2 was. It was certainly very nicely tailored in a 48 Tall.

Course, I've seen it all before in Rocky Horror world. A friend who used to reproduce costumes there had endless frustrations trying to explain to larger ladies who wanted screen-accurate hot pants that had both the right number of stripes *and* the right distance between them that unless your bum is exactly the same size as Nell Campbell's, that just ain't possible...

With military uniforms or when reproducing a specific costume, a lot of folks get very focused on the details and somehow miss that sometimes looking right and "being" right aren't quite the same thing. It's interesting, though, to see how even with something like a uniform, there's still a fair bit of room for interpretation. It also amuses me sometimes how high our standards are: in truth, more than most A2s churned out in 1942 would doubtless have been nowhere near the level we expect nowadays of our accurate reproductions. Of course, given that accuracy (assuming an agreed definition thereof) now to jackets produced back then, now in vastly small numbers, to a very exacting customer base is a much more expensive endeavour than working to a broad spec with wartime QC, and inevitably costs much more, especially for skilled, artisanal labour. Demand feeds cost feeds demand; I know my standards are much more demanding for a jacket at £700 than one at £100. It's interesting, though, to see this much more pronouncedly 'first hand' as I observe discussions now of MA1s. I remember when a now long-gone, much-loved surplus store in Belfast used to have the real thing for £25, racks and racks of them. (I console myself with the thought that if I had liked them and bought one then, it would be unwearably small for me now.) Precious few of them were qualitatively 'better' than the likes of the Rothcos and such we see now that are routinely sneered at, as compared to the megabucks perfect repros coming out of Japan. Oh, for a chance to travel back in time fore-armed with what we know now and a whole heap of cash....

 

[Canuck Panda]

The Japanese CXL copy aka Shinki extra thick semi aniline/pigment teacore horsehide is tumbled. That's why they are 1.4mm thick like CXL, but much softer when new. That's why the FW/RC...etc. have thick leather but is soft and have predictably (evenly distributed) grains.

Tumbling or milling or staking pops the grain so it's easier for the cutter to see where the grainy parts are. And if the maker chose to, can match the jacket accordingly.

They also skive the seams so it's thin and take no time to break in and can use smaller needles to stitch the jacket together, giving it a neater appearance. I do worry the thinner seams won't hold up in heavier uses.

None of these matters if you enjoy breaking in your own jacket. But for everyday jackets it does make sense to at least tumble/mill the hide. Both Aero and Johnson do the tumbling already, I didn't ask before I will certainly ask for them now.

Unfortunately repro Talon isn't good no matter where it's from, Japan included. It's the teeth and the socket. Stick with Universal (YKK) or Crown or NOS Talons. Too much price to pay for that Talon look zip socket, not worth it imo. Replacing zips can be a bitch and costly.

 

[Aloysius]

I agree about the merits of tumbling but I don’t think Shinki horsehide is remotely a CXL copy.

It’s a standard midweight garment leather, not an oil-and-wax-stuffed shoe and accessory leather like CXL.

 

[Marc mndt]

Unfortunately repro Talon isn't good no matter where it's from, Japan included. It's the teeth and the socket.

Here's a couple of original Talons. What should I be looking for, I don't see any sockets.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Here's a couple of original Talons. What should I be looking for, I don't see any sockets.

View attachment 465393 View attachment 465394 View attachment 465395 View attachment 465396

The original male pin sits inside the socket and is fully checked in place by the first teeth on top. The repro starts to slide out and it's failure sooner or later. I think the socket that holds the male pin on the repro is not deep enough. I'll try to find a grinder small enough to get into the gap and see if I can file it down a bit more on the repro Talons.

 

[Canuck Panda]

And now look at my repro, the pin doesn't hold down like the old ones.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I agree about the merits of tumbling but I don’t think Shinki horsehide is remotely a CXL copy.

It’s a standard midweight garment leather, not an oil-and-wax-stuffed shoe and accessory leather like CXL.

Not as much wax as CXL you are right. The thickness of some Shinki isn't thin though. I sent my RC racer jacket to Greg and he opened it up and put a caliper to it and told me it was at least 1.4mm or more, that's CXL thickness. Not the typical 1.1/1.2mm thin stuff. If you have a FL jacket in the queue, ask for the Rainbow Country lining construction method, it's really the nicest way of doing them (linings). Probably takes much longer time but his advantage is going slow.

I am only getting tumbled CXL from this point on. I still prefer thicker hides, just not the arm bruises.

 

[Aloysius]

I do have one in the queue but I feel a bit silly asking for that without knowing what it is. What do they do?

Thickness isn’t the defining factor of CXL though–the oils and waxes are. Barenia is closer to CXL than Shinki is.

 

[Marc mndt]

I do have one in the queue but I feel a bit silly asking for that without knowing what it is. What do they do?

Thickness isn’t the defining factor of CXL though–the oils and waxes are. Barenia is closer to CXL than Shinki is.

I asked for panelled lining, they charge £30 for it.

 

[Aloysius]

I asked for panelled lining, they charge £30 for it.

View attachment 465424

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Do you think this would make future re-lining a hassle? It does look great and I think I’ll request it as well.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I've seen pictures of 20s and 30s jackets that has this type of paneling lining. And only Rainbow Country is reproducing it that way (for now). Maybe this is why they always have delivery delays. Double stitched seams on the lining! Fitted sized exactly to the leather shell. Very premium feeling. It's like having two jacket fused in one. I wouldn't worry about relining in this lifetime. Go with a quality material and let the material do the work.

 

[Marc mndt]

Do you think this would make future re-lining a hassle? It does look great and I think I’ll request it as well.

I don't know but I don't think you'll have to worry about that if you choose a tweed lining. Don't opt for a lightweight wool lochcarron, that will wear through within a couple of years.

This is a lochcarron tweed on my latest FL, I'll have the same on my next one.

 

[Carlos840]

I've seen pictures of 20s and 30s jackets that has this type of paneling lining. And only Rainbow Country is reproducing it that way (for now). Maybe this is why they always have delivery delays. Double stitched seams on the lining! Fitted sized exactly to the leather shell. Very premium feeling. It's like having two jacket fused in one. I wouldn't worry about relining in this lifetime. Go with a quality material and let the material do the work.

FW lined the LaBrea the same way...

Also, what are you going on about with CXL?
CXL can be bought in any thickness, meaning this statement doesn't make sens:
"That's why they are 1.4mm thick like CXL"

From the Horween website: "Chromexcel is available in a full range of weights – including 2 – 3 oz (0.8 – 1.2 mm) horsefronts and side (cowhide) leather from 3.5 – 4 oz (1.4 – 1.6 mm) up to 9 – 10 oz (3.6 – 4.0 mm). There are many variations of Chromexcel, including versions that are cementable and waterproof."

Where are you getting all this information you keep posting here?

 

[Aloysius]

FW lined the LaBrea the same way...

Rainbow Country manufactures FW, as far as I know.

 

[Carlos840]

Rainbow Country manufactures FW, as far as I know.

I also heard that, my point is only that saying "only Rainbow Country is reproducing it that way" is missleading to anyone who doesn't know that FW is made by RC.

Just like saying "That's why they are 1.4mm thick like CXL" is missleading to anyone who doesn't know much about CXL.

 

[Marc mndt]

I also heard that, my point is only that saying "only Rainbow Country is reproducing it that way" is missleading to anyone who doesn't know that FW is made by RC.

Our very own @regius does the lining that way.