What Hatco COULD produce with modern materials and different blocks

[besdor]

Unfortunately, I dont see the trend going towards tall full crowns but just the opposite. We are getting more and more calls for shorter tapered crowns with a 2 to 2 1/4 inch brim for the dress market. Probably the only company today that could produce a tall full corwn would be Borsalino . We carry a hat called the Film. Its a tall open crown that could be made in any height or brim size. They have lifters that they use to get any crown and height size.

 

[seabass]

Hi Josh
your work with this modern day Factory Hat came out Magnificent.
Now its profile is what i desire in a Hat......
If Hatco did make something like this we would have to figure its retail cost verses custom...
I would also expect the sweatband to be real leather & im sure the felt is great but i would want all great parts...
But like cars we tend to well i have customise, So your effort is invaluable & really did come out sweet.
i would think its Vintage
if i came upon this but i would want a closer look & would see the parts ,,,I can tell, but the new to hat person would sure Love it
if they wanted a true vintage look....
& hey Fashion does do some double-takes to the old days,, we see it with clothing Jeans for example,,,,being made as they were back when
so Hatco can make sales to folks that want something done as the old days......Bit its about marketing & exposure as you say.
who know's what world markets would go for this or maybe the Japanese repop kings would do this first & probably to a higher level....
Awwww we are Few i know...
its a beauty wear it well & enjoy it !
Thank You for your great Presentation & you are a Master at Educating & make things easy & clear to understand !
che

 

[suitedcboy]

I find that the most common thing I hear when I wear a fedora, all of which are 2 1/2 brim to 2 3/4 and are taller no taper crowns, is , "I'd wear a hat like that but I never see ones like that for sale anywhere".
I guess I assumed the shapeless style I see in catalogs and online were the sellers pushing their wishes instead of demand driven.

 

[Chepstow]

Josh, your work is absolutely fantastic. A real stunner. I love it!

 

[Joshbru3]

Great job, and a great improvement!:eusa_clap

As to Hatco's marketing, I suspect they did not just fall off the wagon, and would be happy to make whatever they feel they can sell.........I suspect that you could wear your conversion one day and the standard version the next day and never have anyone notice the difference - unless, of course, they are members of this distinguished company of gentlemen!

What an incredible difference! Awesome work.

I love your project and the detailed description, Josh... beautifully done and shared.

I took to watching Boardwalk Empire this past season and was somewhat amazed at the hat styling in the movie. There is little effort, to my eye, to create an accurate portrayal of the period. Some of the lead hats actually make me wince. Is it a decision based on careless research or limited supplies (I've heard from Gary White that he has made quite a few hats for the show) or is it a thought through plan to meld contemporary style with a vintage "flavor."

I think if we could sell Bruno Mars on a 52 block, there might be hope.

My God, Josh, that's fantastic! I love what you've done. I still think there's a market for taller crowns, as I get comments on my vintage and Bowers brand hats asking where to get a hat like that. I worked with HATCO for a awhile, trying to revive the Crofut & Knapp brand or offer exclusive Dobbs hats with that kind of profile, but nothing came of it. You're right, they need new blocks.

Great job on a nice looking hat. As the Czechs would say DOBRY!

Hi Josh
your work with this modern day Factory Hat came out Magnificent.
Now its profile is what i desire in a Hat......
If Hatco did make something like this we would have to figure its retail cost verses custom...
I would also expect the sweatband to be real leather & im sure the felt is great but i would want all great parts...
But like cars we tend to well i have customise, So your effort is invaluable & really did come out sweet.
i would think its Vintage
if i came upon this but i would want a closer look & would see the parts ,,,I can tell, but the new to hat person would sure Love it
if they wanted a true vintage look....
& hey Fashion does do some double-takes to the old days,, we see it with clothing Jeans for example,,,,being made as they were back when
so Hatco can make sales to folks that want something done as the old days......Bit its about marketing & exposure as you say.
who know's what world markets would go for this or maybe the Japanese repop kings would do this first & probably to a higher level....
Awwww we are Few i know...
its a beauty wear it well & enjoy it !
Thank You for your great Presentation & you are a Master at Educating & make things easy & clear to understand !
che

Josh, your work is absolutely fantastic. A real stunner. I love it!

WOW!!!! Thanks so much to all of you for such wonderful comments!!!! I truly appreciate every single one. It was my pleasure taking photos of this project and doing the write-up. I always want to share my projects, experiences, trials, and tribulations with everybody on the lounge because I feel its important. When I first got into hats, I didn’t know the first thing about them. I didn’t know what styles I liked, how hats were made, what tools were needed, the history of companies, etc. The wonderful people on the lounge have taught me SO much through the years and I always feel that any info I can possibly find concerning hats should be shared with everybody.

 

[Joshbru3]

...... "I'd wear a hat like that but I never see ones like that for sale anywhere".

This right here is my point exactly. I understand that modern day advertising is very expensive and Hatco doesn't feel that they should put much money into their dress hat division. If they are not going to spend money to advertise in magazines, TV, etc then don't make a hat like the Nostalgia and blame its poor sales on the fact that's its an Open Crowned hat and that nobody wants it. Because I don't buy it for a second. Almost every single day people come up to me and ask me where they can buy a hat like I am wearing. I always tell them that the hat is vintage, but if I could say, "you can by one that looks identical to it at Macy's, or Sears, or etc...." then I am fairly certain that they would. Lets be honest here, the people that are mostly going to pay upwards of $150 or $200 for a decent factory produced dress hat are for the most part NOT going to be young kids. Its going to be people in their late 20's and on. The major problem and I believe one of the single most important problems is that PEOPLE CAN NOT FIND TALL CROWNED HATS IN REGULAR RETAIL STORES. Like I said in my earlier posts, the average guy will not walk into a hat shop because most people don't even know that many exist. The average guy will not go online and visit 6-7 online hat shops and compare crown heights. I am not for one minute saying that short tapered crowns will ever disappear because I think they have been around long enough, they are considered trendy even when hats are not the "in-thing." The fact is that many things that were considered "old fashion" and passe' are bigger than ever. In recent history, smoking cigars was something that many younger men considered a hobby of older men. In recent years, cigar smoking has become HUGE again, especially in Chicago. People are opening up cigar stores and lounges, and rolling their own cigars for sale. I'm not saying this hobby was ever extinguished, but it was not a "younger" activity. I see MANY younger men and women bringing cigars back into the forefront of popular culture. People like tall crowns....NOT everyone....but people do. If people are given the opportunity to buy a reasonably priced tall crowned felt hat in a regular retail location and those same tall crowned hats were made available nationwide, THEY WOULD SELL. People like to pick up an item, hold it, feel the felt, and then make a decision to buy. Much of the retail sales made in the USA are impulse buys. Put the hat in front of people and they will buy it. I appreciate online stores, but even in the technological age, people still like to walk into a store and buy an item. A caveat that I will place on that statement is that there MUST be advertising to back up the production of the hat. If I were Hatco, I would produce 2 versions, and Open Crown hat to shape yourself, and a taller un-tapered pre-formed crown like they did in the 40's/50's. I would advertise these hats in GQ, Cigar Magazines, Hot Rod Magazines, Mens Health Magazines, Higher end fashion magazines, and get retailers such as Macy's, Sears, Target, Walmart, etc to advertise these hats in their local ads as well. If we didn't belong to the lounge, would we ever know about hats?? Probably not. So why is Hatco expecting to sell hats without proper advertising? Just in Chicago alone, there are more Craft Breweries & coffee shops than ever before. Why? Because people are sick of the same old dull corporate stuff. If a handmade item is offered to them at a reasonable price, and they can actually pick it up in their hands and appreciate the craftsmanship, they will buy it.

 

[RBH]

One thing about online shops is that photos can be deceiving.
Alot of times the photo makes the crown appear taller than it is.
I should have known better , but thats what happened to me on the modern fur Stratoliner.
I had the measurements but the photo looked so good.
The hat might have been reblocked but I gave mine away so I will leave that to someone else.

 

[-30-]

"It was my pleasure taking photos of this project and doing the write-up."
QUOTE: Joshbru3.

It was all of our pleasure to read & look.
Thank you.


Regards,
-30-

 

[rlk]

I like your hat, but somehow 60 years of history seem to have vaporized. If you have that much faith consider a business plan.

 

[Fletch]

I find that the most common thing I hear when I wear a fedora, all of which are 2 1/2 brim to 2 3/4 and are taller no taper crowns, is , "I'd wear a hat like that but I never see ones like that for sale anywhere".
I guess I assumed the shapeless style I see in catalogs and online were the sellers pushing their wishes instead of demand driven.

What's available shapes demand, and eventually limits people's tastes.

My take on it is that the crown, as part of a hat's style, is today mostly ignored. It's a vehicle for a crease or dent and that's all. Style = dent, crease, brim width and trim. Forget crown. It's there to hold the crease and the head.

I think that's true because of the more limited market for classic hats, and Hatco's business is built around that reality.

 

[danofarlington]

My secret strategy for a hatmaker or hat shop to sell more hats is to get male models to wear hats and walk around downtown. Maybe you set up a street location at noon where a couple of hat models walk around and there's a sign for the store or the hatmaker. Seeing a good hat live on a guy IMHO would provoke envy among the men, and wishes among the women that "my man would get a hat like that." Live modeling would beat the other methods at the beginning.

 

[Fletch]

I like your hat, but somehow 60 years of history seem to have vaporized.

That's either progress or a damn shame.

 

[hatophile]

One thing about online shops is that photos can be deceiving.
Alot of times the photo makes the crown appear taller than it is.
I should have known better , but thats what happened to me on the modern fur Stratoliner.
I had the measurements but the photo looked so good.
The hat might have been reblocked but I gave mine away so I will leave that to someone else.

Very true Rusty, and this happens on Ebay too.

 

[Rudie]

This right here is my point exactly. I understand that modern day advertising is very expensive and Hatco doesn't feel that they should put much money into their dress hat division. If they are not going to spend money to advertise in magazines, TV, etc then don't make a hat like the Nostalgia and blame its poor sales on the fact that's its an Open Crowned hat and that nobody wants it. Because I don't buy it for a second. Almost every single day people come up to me and ask me where they can buy a hat like I am wearing. I always tell them that the hat is vintage, but if I could say, "you can by one that looks identical to it at Macy's, or Sears, or etc...." then I am fairly certain that they would. Lets be honest here, the people that are mostly going to pay upwards of $150 or $200 for a decent factory produced dress hat are for the most part NOT going to be young kids. Its going to be people in their late 20's and on. The major problem and I believe one of the single most important problems is that PEOPLE CAN NOT FIND TALL CROWNED HATS IN REGULAR RETAIL STORES. Like I said in my earlier posts, the average guy will not walk into a hat shop because most people don't even know that many exist. The average guy will not go online and visit 6-7 online hat shops and compare crown heights. I am not for one minute saying that short tapered crowns will ever disappear because I think they have been around long enough, they are considered trendy even when hats are not the "in-thing." The fact is that many things that were considered "old fashion" and passe' are bigger than ever. In recent history, smoking cigars was something that many younger men considered a hobby of older men. In recent years, cigar smoking has become HUGE again, especially in Chicago. People are opening up cigar stores and lounges, and rolling their own cigars for sale. I'm not saying this hobby was ever extinguished, but it was not a "younger" activity. I see MANY younger men and women bringing cigars back into the forefront of popular culture. People like tall crowns....NOT everyone....but people do. If people are given the opportunity to buy a reasonably priced tall crowned felt hat in a regular retail location and those same tall crowned hats were made available nationwide, THEY WOULD SELL. People like to pick up an item, hold it, feel the felt, and then make a decision to buy. Much of the retail sales made in the USA are impulse buys. Put the hat in front of people and they will buy it. I appreciate online stores, but even in the technological age, people still like to walk into a store and buy an item. A caveat that I will place on that statement is that there MUST be advertising to back up the production of the hat. If I were Hatco, I would produce 2 versions, and Open Crown hat to shape yourself, and a taller un-tapered pre-formed crown like they did in the 40's/50's. I would advertise these hats in GQ, Cigar Magazines, Hot Rod Magazines, Mens Health Magazines, Higher end fashion magazines, and get retailers such as Macy's, Sears, Target, Walmart, etc to advertise these hats in their local ads as well. If we didn't belong to the lounge, would we ever know about hats?? Probably not. So why is Hatco expecting to sell hats without proper advertising? Just in Chicago alone, there are more Craft Breweries & coffee shops than ever before. Why? Because people are sick of the same old dull corporate stuff. If a handmade item is offered to them at a reasonable price, and they can actually pick it up in their hands and appreciate the craftsmanship, they will buy it.

I second that!

Advertising makes people buy the most horrible crap. Good advertising can sell everything. This is why good copywriters can ask almost any amount of money plus a share of the turnover. They are selling the stuff, not the designers or craftsmen. With good advertising you can sell any kind of hat. But you gotta do it.

 

[Denton]

Cool project, amazing result, fascinating discussion. I want to isolate one part of the discussion for comment:

I wanted this hat to look like a hat that would have been made in the 20's/30's/40's but still retain all of the factory components used in modern times.

(Joshbru3)

I like your hat, but somehow 60 years of history seem to have vaporized.

(rlk)

There's a real disagreement here between two people who know a lot about hats, and probably a useful lesson for non-experts like me, if I could just figure out what it is. Maybe it's just the difference between depth (Josh) and breadth (Robert), but I suspect it would be a mistake to underestimate the depth of Robert's collection. I'm tempted to say that these are two different ways of thinking about history. Josh wants to freeze history into a single shape, the tall straight-sided crown. Robert is more interested in watching that shape move and change, recede and return, in cycles.

(Josh and Robert, if I have misunderstood what you have written, please correct me.)

I find both sides compelling. Josh may have the advantages of conviction and sensibility, while Robert has those of practicality and realism. I feel I've seen this happen a few times in previous discussions -- for instance, in the debate between mayserwegener and tonyb about the different features of hats made by machine versus hats made by hand. Out of a shared taste in hats, two different philosophies emerge.

One final speculation. Josh's experiment might be a demonstration of the basic conservatism of the form of men's hats, even across a century of major changes in the hat-wearing population. The differences in style that mean so much to us are small enough that a hat in a new style can be made to look like a hat in an old style with a few ingenious alterations, and without adding any materials.

 

[Fletch]

I second that!

Advertising makes people buy the most horrible crap. Good advertising can sell everything. This is why good copywriters can ask almost any amount of money plus a share of the turnover. They are selling the stuff, not the designers or craftsmen. With good advertising you can sell any kind of hat. But you gotta do it.

And in an industry that is a. traditional and b. has grown used to its market slowly vanishing, people are not going to be open to new ideas in advertising. Not even if they're cheap. However, you're never going to know if you don't try. And the culture in the industry now is "don't try."

 

[Joshbru3]

Cool project, amazing result, fascinating discussion. I want to isolate one part of the discussion for comment:


(Joshbru3)


(rlk)

There's a real disagreement here between two people who know a lot about hats, and probably a useful lesson for non-experts like me, if I could just figure out what it is. Maybe it's just the difference between depth (Josh) and breadth (Robert), but I suspect it would be a mistake to underestimate the depth of Robert's collection. I'm tempted to say that these are two different ways of thinking about history. Josh wants to freeze history into a single shape, the tall straight-sided crown. Robert is more interested in watching that shape move and change, recede and return, in cycles.

(Josh and Robert, if I have misunderstood what you have written, please correct me.)

I find both sides compelling. Josh may have the advantages of conviction and sensibility, while Robert has those of practicality and realism. I feel I've seen this happen a few times in previous discussions -- for instance, in the debate between mayserwegener and tonyb about the different features of hats made by machine versus hats made by hand. Out of a shared taste in hats, two different philosophies emerge.

One final speculation. Josh's experiment might be a demonstration of the basic conservatism of the form of men's hats, even across a century of major changes in the hat-wearing population. The differences in style that mean so much to us are small enough that a hat in a new style can be made to look like a hat in an old style with a few ingenious alterations, and without adding any materials.

Thanks very much for the kind words about my project and the analysis of the conversation in this thread, Denton! I just want to say that I fully agree with everything that Robert wrote. His knowledge of hats, hat history, and collections far exceeds mine and I would be lucky if I had 1/5 of the knowledge he has. There truly isn't an argument at all. He is absolutely right that currently not too many people ask for tall/straight crowns outside of lounge members and our perspective on what hats should be produced is slightly biased. My only point was this.....I believe there is a market for tall/straight crowns but since people do not have easy access to buying them, they are not only unfamiliar with the style, but do not know where to look. I believe that Hatco does not concentrate on their Dress hats very much as they have admitted that about 75-80 percent of their hat sales are Western hats. I firmly believe that IF (and thats a big IF) Hatco wanted a successful line of Tall crown( 5 1/2 inches and over) hats, they have to do a good amount of things differently. They need an advertising campaign for starters. They need to stock all major retail clothing stores with these hats, and most importantly, they need to get these hats into the public eye. Currently, there isn't much demand for tall crowned hats in the general public because almost everything that's offered today are short/tapered crowns. I think people do like the "pre-WW2" styles, but like I said, have no retail outlet to purchase them. When I first started wearing hats, I wore stingys. They had short/tapered crowns, and short brims. I never got a compliment or got stopped by strangers who were asking about the hat. As soon as I started getting into taller crowns with 2 1/4 inch brims (my favorite brim size), people not only tell me constantly how much they like my hats, but they always want to know where to buy them. Hatco is not supplying the demand, they are simply making hats the same way they have made them since the 60's and hope that they sell. Well, its pretty obvious that if dress hats only make up 20% of their sales, something isn't done correctly.

 

[majormoore]

The tall crown fedora hat ( 5 3/4" open crown) is not what my walk in trade wants, they put the hats on and say "that looks to tall on me" even when we have the crowns fixed in C crease, Diamonds , center dents and so on. They all want something much lower, almost what a ball cap crown looks like.

They seem to want that low crown hat that might be 4 1/2" when it was open before it was pushed into a press where that crease in the crown was done with the heavy presses.

I can tell you that in western hats we are seeing a come back of the wide brim hats ( 5" ) and taller crowns , but the standard cattleman crease is still in the low crease but it is moving to a wider brim as are some of the other western hats.

Major Moore

 

[tonyb]

I wouldn't dispute the notion that often people don't know what they want until they see it. It's a point I've made many times myself.

And it still mystifies me that, given a choice, people would choose some short, tapered-crown hat over a taller, straighter one. If I understand you correctly, Josh, what you're arguing is that people aren't really given the choice.

On those infrequent occasions when I stroll into Byrnie Utz, the venerable hats-only shop in downtown Seattle that's been around since 1938 (I think), I see at least some hats more in keeping with the styles preferred by people like you and me -- you know, the relatively tall, straight-sided ones. But here's the odd part -- it seems those hats are scarcer there these days than they were just a few years ago. The people who run that place have kept it going all these years, so I suspect they have a pretty good sense for what they can sell and what they can't, and it appears that what sells best these days are shorter, more tapered crowns.

What would move things in the direction you and I would rather see things go is more celebrities sporting such lids. I see actors and musicians getting into hats, and I see the youngsters emulating them. Maybe they aren't the hats we'd prefer seeing, but hey, they're at least hats, so I take it as a good sign overall.

And then there's Johnny Depp, he of the vintage fedoras. I can't imagine that that doesn't help drive things along.

As to your craft beer and specialty coffee analogy, the change there has come from the bottom up. There used to be breweries in every large city and many smaller ones throughout the country, until the big consolidations in the industry resulted in the closure of the vast majority of them. In many cases, the old brand names live on, but the product is made in some distant mega-facility.

And then along came the micro brewers and the brew pubs. There's gotta be several hundred if not thousands of them now. But their total sales are but a drop in the barrel in comparison to the big players. But they've given the beer-drinking public a taste of what beer can be, and the big players have responded with their own offerings that somewhat approximate them. With specialty coffee, well, espresso houses go back a good long ways. Well before my time (and I'm on the verge of decrepitude), you'd find espresso houses in the major cities and in college towns. But then Starbucks came along and took it mainstream. Their phenomenal success has pushed even McDonald's into offering similar products.

But beer and coffee never went out of fashion. Specialty beers and coffees are still beer and coffee, and the local brew pub and coffee house doesn't have to convince the public to drink beer and coffee. "Proper" hats, on the other hand, have not been a part of the average man's daily attire for more than half a century. Getting that average man into any hat at all is the first challenge.

 

[tonyb]

One little suggestion, Josh ...

Your lengthier posts would be easier to read (and therefore more likely to be read) if you busted up the text a bit more. Shorter paragraphs separated by double spaces make 'em easier to digest.