What Hatco COULD produce with modern materials and different blocks

[randooch]

Late with my comment, Josh, but bravo on your capably executed and subtle conversion. It lends another, more interesting definition to "upcycling."

 

[Joshbru3]

One little suggestion, Josh ...

Your lengthier posts would be easier to read (and therefore more likely to be read) if you busted up the text a bit more. Shorter paragraphs separated by double spaces make 'em easier to digest.

Ah, yes. Sorry about that. When a thought gets into my head, I just have to type it out before I forget and I always seem to forget to break up the paragraphs. :eusa_doh:

 

[Joshbru3]

Thank you very much, Tony & Mike for adding to this thread. Your opinions mean a lot to me and its very interesting what both of you wrote.

Before I comment any further, I forgot to add something very important that I should have added in the beginning of this thread. Tall crowns are NOT for everyone and by that I mean, they never were. Someone should wear a hat based on something that looks good for their face. Floating around the lounge somewhere is an old picture that shows which face shape matches up with which type of hat (ie, tall crown, short crown, wide brim, short brim, etc.) I have vintage hat ads from the teens and 20's that show hats that have 5 1/8 and 5 1/4 inch open crowns. When creased down they are fairly short. The crowns were pretty straight, but fairly short.

Tall crowns are my preference and I feel are many others as well on the lounge, but like I said they are not for everyone. I can appreciate the variances in crown height and brim width. I guess what I'm looking for in modern hat companies are "Straighter" crowns with less taper and the option for tall crowns.

If I understand you correctly, Josh, what you're arguing is that people aren't really given the choice.

Tony, I guess that’s what I’m arguing. That people aren’t given a choice on a mainstream (national retail chains) level. Custom hatters will make almost any hat that someone can dream of, but what percentage of the public will know that they can go to a custom hatter and have that done? I think my bottom line is that without proper advertising and marketing behind a hat like the Nostalgia, only a select few that specifically look for that type of hat will buy it. It seems that’s exactly what happened. I would be willing to bet that of those 300 Nostalgia units sold by Hatco every year, many of them were purchased by lounge members, or people truly into hats.

But beer and coffee never went out of fashion. Specialty beers and coffees are still beer and coffee, and the local brew pub and coffee house doesn't have to convince the public to drink beer and coffee. "Proper" hats, on the other hand, have not been a part of the average man's daily attire for more than half a century. Getting that average man into any hat at all is the first challenge.

This is an extremely valid point and I appreciate you writing it. Beer and Coffee have never gone out of style, but hats have. The biggest challenge is getting people back into hats, and like you, I am very happy when anybody buys and wears a felt fedora. Even if it’s a stingy. I would just like more variety in the market from major manufactures.


*I really hope that my comments in this thread didn’t give the illusion that I was angry or arguing with anyone. I’m not mad at all. I actually love all of the perspectives and comments that have been left and I think it’s a very interesting topic of conversation. I think a lot of this conversation has been said on the lounge before, especially after trying to get that vintage looking Strat produced from Hatco. Anyone that has ever met me in person knows that I love to talk and have open conversations. That’s whats so wonderful about this forum, the ability to bounce ideas off your peers and have intellectual conversations.

 

[Joshbru3]

Late with my comment, Josh, but bravo on your capably executed and subtle conversion. It lends another, more interesting definition to "upcycling."

Thanks so much, Randall!!!

 

[tonyb]

...

I think my bottom line is that without proper advertising and marketing behind a hat like the Nostalgia, only a select few that specifically look for that type of hat will buy it. It seems that’s exactly what happened. I would be willing to bet that of those 300 Nostalgia units sold by Hatco every year, many of them were purchased by lounge members, or people truly into hats.


...

I asked about the Stetson Nostalgia during one of those infrequent visits to Byrnie Utz. The young clerk found one in his glass-fronted cases and handed it to me. It was indeed a nice looking hat, but I can't say I was favorably impressed by the quality of its materials. It is, after all, just a new Stetson dress hat. Only their Pinnacle line warrants being called a "quality" hat, but I don't much care for its style.

The upshot was that the clerk offered a substantial discount from regular retail price, and even then I passed. But that gesture suggested that they had no great demand for that model and were just looking to be rid of them.

 

[The Good]

That was a great conversion! I think the hat looks better now than it did before. I prefer a straight-sided crown, with perhaps a little bit of taper, but not as extreme as a modern hat. My favorite dress hat is a vintage Stetson St. Regis I converted to a fedora, and the brim is 2 1/8 inches wide, with a crown about 4 1/4 inches tall. When it came to me open crown (more or less it sprung up that way, after I noticed the shallow center crease), I think it was about 5 1/2. I'm thinking I'll get another Akubra Federation IV, with the 5 5/8 crown and 2 1/2 and 2 5/8 dimensional brim, too. Modern hats can look nice, but I prefer the proportions of vintage ones ultimately. I've found that both my hats (the vintage one and the current Fed IV) have tapered somewhat, but it looks good on me that way, where as an artificially tapered modern hat would look too extreme I think. This is coming from about three years' worth of experience wearing felt/straw dress hats, and wearing felt in the rain with regularity.

 

[jlee562]

*I really hope that my comments in this thread didn’t give the illusion that I was angry or arguing with anyone. I’m not mad at all. I actually love all of the perspectives and comments that have been left and I think it’s a very interesting topic of conversation. I think a lot of this conversation has been said on the lounge before, especially after trying to get that vintage looking Strat produced from Hatco. Anyone that has ever met me in person knows that I love to talk and have open conversations. That’s whats so wonderful about this forum, the ability to bounce ideas off your peers and have intellectual conversations.

Likewise Josh, I hope you didn't take my comments as being overly critical. Your work with this hat has been great. And as usual, your documentation of the process has been most enlightening (I've got to find myself a good ol' block for my lids!). I appreciate the great dialogue and conversation from all in this thread, even if we agree to disagree at the end of the day.

 

[-30-]

"there MUST be advertising to back up the production of"
QUOTE: Joshbru3.

No 1:
"A business without a sign is the sign of no business."

No 2:
Gold bricks being given away at the city's busiest intersection will have no takers if no one knows about it.

No 3:
No skin, no game.


Regards,
-30-

 

[1961MJS]

When I think of '60s hats my mind goes, rightly or wrongly, to roundish men in suits with skinny lapels and in short-brimmed, tapered-crowned hats. You know, Jack Ruby....

Hi

Dad quit wearing hats during that time period, he has a couple of sixty's era stingy brims in the garage. Granny (his Mother-In_law) said that he looked stupid in them so he quit wearing hats. Grand daddy Harv (Harvey) wore a 2.5 inch brimmed fedora (brown I think) until he died in 1979. Dad went to no hat with a suit and ball caps with everything else. When he died at 92, he usually wore a USAAC Veteran hat I bought at a gun show in about 2003.

Later

 

[KingAndrew]

Two quick thoughts. One, the enduring interest in Indiana Jones hats indicates that there is a public willing to explore a more vintage/high crown style if the option is available. That doesn't mean that this market segment is large enough to excite large-production makers like Hatco or Dorfman. As long as their trial balloons are of limited quality and distribution, it is impossible to know whether style, materials, or availability--or some combination of the above--account for disappointing sales.

Second, since a ball cap is the only hat most of today's men have ever worn, the low, tapered crown probably matches the way those caps feel on the head. This would seem like the "right fit" if you've never worn a higher-crowned hat. And since most dress-type hats that are available in large retailers only come in sizes "S-M-L-XL," it would be hard for many men to get the kind of snug above the ears fit that supports a higher-crowned hat. Thus a crown that rests on the head would keep the hat from falling below the eyes and swallowing the wearer's face.

When I look at many of the young people wearing the "hipster" stingy brim style (like Bruno Mars), many seem to wear hats that look a little too tight and they often leave the brims facing up. Both of these make the hats fit more like a ball cap (especially one turned backwards). Again, if this is the way you think a hat "should" fit, you will be drawn to styles and sizes that match that.

I've worn hats all my life. But I was in my late teens/early twenties when I realized I should pull the brim lower over my forehead, instead of balancing the thing on the back of my skull. Not only did I suddenly look more like the guys in the old movies, but the brim could now protect my face from the sun and rain. Most young people today have no role models or experience in how to wear these hats and no knowledge of their history. So wearing the readily-available Target hat that "feels" right and looks like what they see in the ads and music videos is the obvious way for them to go.

We can do our best to model other approaches and to mentor the young men we know. But without some educational/advertising outreach from the manufacturers, such efforts will still only reach a limited group. However, big styles grow from small trends, so it is worth continuing to provide such modeling and encouraging to the public at large.

Andrew

 

[tonyb]

... the enduring interest in Indiana Jones hats indicates that there is a public willing to explore a more vintage/high crown style if the option is available. That doesn't mean that this market segment is large enough to excite large-production makers like Hatco or Dorfman. As long as their trial balloons are of limited quality and distribution, it is impossible to know whether style, materials, or availability--or some combination of the above--account for disappointing sales.

...

Both Dorfman Pacific and Stetson (Hatco) produced hats "inspired" by the Indiana Jones movies. Dorfman had the officially licensed product, a cheap wool thing with colors that were close enough to the movie hats but in just about every other regard wasn't even close; and Stetson had a model called the "Temple," which was a better hat than the Dorfman offering but wasn't a near enough reflection of the movie hats to fool anyone who pays much attention to these things.

Nice having you here, Andrew. How's things in Shanghai this time of year?

 

[Denton]

But beer and coffee never went out of fashion. Specialty beers and coffees are still beer and coffee, and the local brew pub and coffee house doesn't have to convince the public to drink beer and coffee. "Proper" hats, on the other hand, have not been a part of the average man's daily attire for more than half a century. Getting that average man into any hat at all is the first challenge.

Coffee has gone out of fashion at least once. It happened in England in the 18th century. In 1700, England was importing a huge amount of coffee and very little tea; by 1800, they were importing a huge amount of tea and just a little coffee. Tea and coffee switched places, and no one knows why. One of the mysteries of culinary history. (Advertising and availability were not crucial factors in this case.)

Has beer ever gone out of fashion? There's Prohibition, I suppose, but that didn't make beer unfashionable, did it.

Returning the analogy to hats, I wonder if the proposed revolution in crown shapes would be any easier to implement than the coffee/tea switch. The example of 18th-century England shows that such changes do occur (although rarely and mysteriously). A beverage that was once a staple can be replaced by different beverage, and the same thing can happen to a popular, seemingly essential article of clothing.

 

[Simonds]

Very nice job on the conversion!

 

[DOGMAN]

Have really enjoyed reading this thread.I prefer a tall straight-sided crown hat.Love what you did with this modern hat,great conversion.You took a hat I wouldn't buy,and turned it into one that I would.Thanks for the pictures(never saw a flange used before)you have helped me with my conversions with your informative posts.Thanks again.

 

[gtdean48]

As the release to market of the modern HatCo Stetson Stratoliner shows, the hat has dimensions of their "popular" crown profile. The word we got from the Lounger who no longer seems to frequent us or respond to personal emails, is that was from the "marketing dept". I am sure they do market research based on what moves off the shelves & not really concerned about the likes of this Lounge. We are not a blip on their marketing radar. I also think an open crown, like the Nostalgia, has its mass appeal problems. Creasing your own hat seem daunting to lots of folks. When we were working on the 41Strat, the main issues we had were around quality issues, not hat dimensions.
We are an insignificant niche in a small segment of their market. Their cash cow is the western lines of lids. We can dream tho....

 

[alanfgag]

We are an insignificant niche in a small segment of their market.

True... and that is wear the fun lies.

If everyone were wearing fedoras I would probably be wearing a baseball cap.

:yo:

 

[hatophile]

True... and that is wear the fun lies.

If everyone were wearing fedoras I would probably be wearing a baseball cap.

:yo:

Nah, you'd be wearing a top hat Alan!

 

[tonyb]

Coffee has gone out of fashion at least once. It happened in England in the 18th century. In 1700, England was importing a huge amount of coffee and very little tea; by 1800, they were importing a huge amount of tea and just a little coffee. Tea and coffee switched places, and no one knows why. One of the mysteries of culinary history. (Advertising and availability were not crucial factors in this case.)

Has beer ever gone out of fashion? There's Prohibition, I suppose, but that didn't make beer unfashionable, did it.

Returning the analogy to hats, I wonder if the proposed revolution in crown shapes would be any easier to implement than the coffee/tea switch. The example of 18th-century England shows that such changes do occur (although rarely and mysteriously). A beverage that was once a staple can be replaced by different beverage, and the same thing can happen to a popular, seemingly essential article of clothing.

In the case of some once ubiquitous things losing their hold -- newspapers, to cite a current example -- we can point to a confluence of contributing factors upon which we can mostly agree, not that there isn't more than a bit of fanciful speculating and theorizing that's certain to meet with challenges.

Curiouser is the example you cite of the coffee/tea thing in England back a couple-three centuries ago. Judging from what you've offered here (I have no reason to doubt it), that no one can say just why the switch happened, then it is indeed quite analogous to what has happened to the "proper" hat over the course of the 20th century. I believe that those who have made a more careful study of the matter (Brad Bowers and rlk, for starts) can point to data showing that per capita hat sales were in decline starting fairly early in the last century. But the why of it is harder to pin down. I'd imagine that in the case of the coffee/tea switch, there have been volumes written offering their own theories.

The only lengthy study of The Great Hat Decline of which I'm aware is "Hatless Jack" by Neil Steinberg. The gist of it, as I recall (it's been a few years since I read it), is that, like newspapers these days, a combination of factors knocked 'em off the pedestal. Unlike newspapers, though, we can't point to one major factor (the Internet, in the case of newspapers) that pushed hats over the edge.

As I and many others here have observed before, even short-crowned, narrow-brimmed fedoras are still fedoras, and their popularity (such as it is) can be taken as a hopeful sign to those who have something to gain by increased hat sales. Me, I don't get worked up over it either way. I sincerely doubt I will ever see the day when hats are as ubiquitous as they were 70 years ago, nor anything even close to it. The challenge to the large-scale hat manufacturers remains getting men to wear "proper" hats. Starbucks and Widmer Bros. didn't have to convince people to drink coffee and beer. And that was my point.

 

[hatophile]

The biggest factor is the hat as a clothing item of utility. Men needed protection from sun and rain while riding on horses, buggies or working in the fields. Notice as the automobile became more ubiquitous in the teens and twenties, and folks became more urban, the hat brims got smaller. Nowadays, unless you work outdoors on a regular basis, there's really no reason for a decent brimmed hat.

A number of years ago, when my wife and I were out west, we stopped at a local hatmaker in Wyoming. He said business was picking up because where farmers and ranchers had previously been wearing feed caps, they were going back to cowboy hats because of the skin cancer upswing, the caps just don't provide as much skin protection.

 

[casechopper]

This makes a lot of sense to me. I could see skin cancer bringing many back to wearing hats. Both of my uncles on my mothers side who live in rural areas out west have had skin cancer issues and both now own large brim cowboy hats because they've been told by their dermatologists to wear wide brimmed hats. They would never have worn cowboy hats when younger. I'm pretty sure they were both ballcap guys. My grandmother has been warned not to go out without a hat due to numerous facial skin cancers she's had removed. She grew up in the 50's when getting a tan was just beginning to be cool. Sun tans will probably go out of style as older sun worshipers start to look more like torture victims covered in facial scars with empty bank accounts from paying their dermatologists.

The biggest factor is the hat as a clothing item of utility. Men needed protection from sun and rain while riding on horses, buggies or working in the fields. Notice as the automobile became more ubiquitous in the teens and twenties, and folks became more urban, the hat brims got smaller. Nowadays, unless you work outdoors on a regular basis, there's really no reason for a decent brimmed hat.

A number of years ago, when my wife and I were out west, we stopped at a local hatmaker in Wyoming. He said business was picking up because where farmers and ranchers had previously been wearing feed caps, they were going back to cowboy hats because of the skin cancer upswing, the caps just don't provide as much skin protection.