What Happened....

[Fading Fast]

I never had any kind of a safety net myself -- I paid $25 a week rent to live at home from the time I was fourteen. But I also know that when I was fourteen or fifteen I had only the vaguest notion of what I expected to do with my life -- the idea of "the rest of your life" was just a nebulous thing that I knew was there, and while I had ideas of what I thought I'd do or that I hoped I'd do, they were the ideas of a kid, not the ideas of an adult. The idea of someone that age having sufficient self-awareness to be able to form a solid vision of what they want to do for the next sixty or seventy years, and to be able to act on it, is rather unrealistic.

Science tells us that the parts of the brain that control "common sense" aren't fully formed until the person is in their mid-twenties, at the earliest. Whether this has changed thru evolution or if it's just the hormones in the drinking water is for someone else to debate, but it certainly seems to be a scientific consensus. The question is, are we evolving as a society to the point where we can effectively meet the challenges of that reality?

I don't know and - as my post showed - I'm really split on this. Is it realistic to wait until someone is in their mid-twenties to make these decision? Maybe. Many in the past have chosen well - college / trade / etc. - after high school and many haven't. I had no idea of what I really wanted, but I knew I had to earn a living and had seen enough to know that I wanted to do something with the possibility of upside.

I went into college not knowing - came out with some direction but nothing concrete - but as noted above, did get a lot of really valuable exposure to ideas, learned how to study, acquired research skills and general discipline (completing assignments, writing papers, etc.) out of college. And it wasn't until I was well into my career that I really took control of it and started steering it how I wanted it to go. Then, when the horse got shot out from under me - as it did several times - I re-invented myself and redirected my career - so no matter what happens in your teens and early twenties, there will be opportunities - chosen or forced on you - to change course later in life.

One of my favorite stories is a friend of mine's dad who always wanted to be an architect - he owned a small manufacturing business - who, when he sold the business and retired (not for a lot and needed to earn some money to augment his retirement income), took some courses in computer program design for architecture (I don't know more) and started working for an architecture firm doing the nuts and bolts design plans. He was very good at it, got hired away by another firm and ended up working for ten more years make okay money and loving his new job. Nothing is set in life / change can happen, but everyone has to do it for themselves.

I do think it is unfair to "sell" kids on the idea that college is a "ticket" to secure success. But maybe the unfortunate answer is kids / late teens do have to make some early and important life decisions - ready or not - and some will and some won't get it right. Maybe it's up to the parent to be mature enough to at least try to prevent their kid from making a horrible choice - huge college debt when the kid is still just a partier. I have seen too much to feel confident in having a "this is the right or wrong way" answer.

 

[Paisley]

Science tells us that the parts of the brain that control "common sense" aren't fully formed until the person is in their mid-twenties, at the earliest. Whether this has changed thru evolution or if it's just the hormones in the drinking water is for someone else to debate, but it certainly seems to be a scientific consensus. The question is, are we evolving as a society to the point where we can effectively meet the challenges of that reality?

Given that, it seems incredibly unfair to encourage young people to take on a mountain of debt for an education that may or may not work out from a financial point of view. Even more so since those loans are very hard to default on.

As for paying rent, my ex-jerk's mom tried that. My ex-jerk moved out and paid rent to someone else.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Re: engineers who can't engineer.

Maybe they're complete knuckleheads, but IME, at least, that's pretty rare. I'd venture to say there's no training or professional development where they work to get them from the theoretical to the practical. Vendor lunch & learns don't count. Rather, they're hired for projects and then laid off, with a strong possibility their next job will be with a competitor. Hence the attitude that by training them, you're just training the competition. But whenever somebody took the time to show me something I needed to know, I always appreciated it.

I don't think it's that they're complete knuckleheads, I think it's that 90% of industry work is repetitive or process oriented and doesn't require any real creativity. What they deal with aren't problems in the sense that they have to figure out a solution. It's more a matter of implementation of existing processes or solutions. Sure, there's an element of "we need to figure out how to get this square peg in that round hole", but that's the exception. Most of it, as a practical matter, is repeating what's already been done. And there's a real need for that, so there's always a market for that.

As for not knowing what you want to do at 17, I agree with that. What I started out to do in college and what degree I ended up with are completely different, and the career path I've been on isn't exactly what I thought I'd be doing with my degree. Economics and the job market dictated a lot of the post-graduate changes, but it's just been an ever-changing process. I think few people end up doing their whole careers what they set out to do when they were 17 years old.

 

[ChiTownScion]

A sixteen or seventeen-year-old doesn't even know what she's going to wear tomorrow, let alone what she wants to do with the rest of her life.

For most, I'd suppose that's true. My best friend when I was growing up knew that he wanted to be an engineer by the time he was about eleven. He ended up getting his masters in mechanical design at MIT. I was about the same age when I decided that I wanted to be an attorney. (Had becoming a steam locomotive engineer on the railroads been a career option, it might have been a more difficult decision for both of us. ) But I can recall sitting in on trials as a kid: most kids were playing ball, but I'd be sitting in the back of a courtroom, watching cross examinations and final arguments. I know that for a lot of people law school was a default option when it became obvious that a bachelor's in art history wasn't opening up career options, but for some of us, it was a lifelong dream.

Of course, over-planning in one's teen years can get a bit silly. Girl I was dating- on the occasion of her sixteenth birthday dinner with her folks- got into a heated dragged out argument over whether she should do her medical residency in dermatology (her dad's suggestion) or general surgery (her choice). Seemed to me even then that she had a few more hurdles to jump before that bridge needed to be crossed. In the end, she got as far as becoming a paramedic for a private ambulance company- essentially transporting the elderly from one nursing home to another. Never even got through pre- med.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As for paying rent, my ex-jerk's mom tried that. My ex-jerk moved out and paid rent to someone else.

My parents did that with me. Told me I'd have to pay rent, then still live by their rules. In what universe did they think *that* was going to fly? If I was paying my way, I was gonna *do it* my way.

 

[ChiTownScion]

My parents did that with me. Told me I'd have to pay rent, then still live by their rules. In what universe did they think *that* was going to fly? If I was paying my way, I was gonna *do it* my way.

Friends of my parents tried that with their four daughters, but with a twist: he demanded 80% of their paychecks, with about $25/ week deducted for "room and board," and the rest was held by him "for savings." Not put into a bank or S&L account- lest they actually have access to what they earned, but forked over to dear old dad. All ended up running off and getting married by the time they were eighteen. (Wonder why, huh??)

That cheap S.O.B. of a father didn't pay for a single wedding for any of his daughters, of course, and I'm guessing that he pocketed every penny that the kids handed over to him as well. More of a pimp than a parent, if you want my opinion.

 

[Paisley]

Good grief. When my cousin's daughter was thinking about going to college in the Denver area (back when I lived there), I offered to let her stay with me if she paid for her own groceries and half the utilities. I only had an 800 sf house, but renting an apartment would have easily cost her $1,000 a month, and I hated to see her or her parents go into debt just for rent.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Friends of my parents tried that with their four daughters, but with a twist: he demanded 80% of their paychecks, with about $25/ week deducted for "room and board," and the rest was held by him "for savings." Not put into a bank or S&L account- lest they actually have access to what they earned, but forked over to dear old dad. All ended up running off and getting married by the time they were eighteen. (Wonder why, huh??)

That cheap S.O.B. of a father didn't pay for a single wedding for any of his daughters, of course, and I'm guessing that he pocketed every penny that the kids handed over to him as well. More of a pimp than a parent, if you want my opinion.

My rent usually came to about half to two-thirds of my paycheck until my senior year of high school when I worked a full 40 hour week as well as going to school. I have very few memories of that year, mainly because I was sleep deprived most of the time. I didn't begrudge paying the rent because it was basically what made the difference between our keeping the house and our losing the house.

My grandparents had bought war bonds for their kids and future grandkids, money that would have come in handy, but, I am told, my father stole them.

 

[ChiTownScion]

My rent usually came to about half to two-thirds of my paycheck until my senior year of high school when I worked a full 40 hour week as well as going to school. I have very few memories of that year, mainly because I was sleep deprived most of the time. I didn't begrudge paying the rent because it was basically what made the difference between our keeping the house and our losing the house.

My grandparents had bought war bonds for their kids and future grandkids, money that would have come in handy, but, I am told, my father stole them.

This guy was a union baker who would spend a king's ransom on his photography hobby equipment, but wouldn't buy his kids milk because it was "fattening." He didn't need their money at all.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I gave a Michigan pre med Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy...

Ignatius J. Reilly would certainly agree with that recommendation.

 

[vitanola]

..But it's obvious that you want to get political, because lately it seems easy to get away with concerning similar positions, unless someone dares to attempt an opposing view. Then it seems quickly attacked and hushed.

Well, I don't see that a person who holds the Beatitudes dear calling Miss Rand a "vile and immoral harpy" should be any more political than, say, the condemnation of bloody murder. It is a moral objection, not political.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This guy was a union baker who would spend a king's ransom on his photography hobby equipment, but wouldn't buy his kids milk because it was "fattening." He didn't need their money at all.

My stepfather-for-seven-months had that same milk fixation. We were given Carnation powdered milk and told to lump it, while he spent his money on motorcycles and ham-radio gear. The distressing thing to me was that he actually seemed to enjoy drinking the stuff.

 

[Stearmen]

I'm lost? What Happened? Oh hats! Oh well!

 

[EngProf]

An engineering degree (in my experience, at least) is a whole lot of theory and very little practical application. Engineering is such a broad field that there's no way you can prepare someone for anything they might encounter.

Further, engineering companies (again, IME) simply aren't willing to train people. In every other industry I've ever worked in, they train people. Engineering firms expect people to come in, sit down, and magically know how to do the work. Ask questions, and you get one-word answers and a look like, "Are you stupid or something?"

Why don't they fire incompetent engineers? Have you seen help wanted ads for engineers? They have a mile-long list of qualifications that very few people meet. And since employers are not willing to train, well... Unfortunately, this practice has spread to other industries, and now employers whine that they just can't find qualified people, when they really just can't find perfect people.

It may be worth mentioning that the teaching of engineering has had a revolutionary change in the last decade or so. The things that you (and others) have mentioned that engineers supposedly don't have - design/creativity/problem-solving-skills/imagination are now stressed from Day One of their first year and *must* continue throughout the four years.
This may be due to feedback from industry, which has had to employ the drones referred to elsewhere, but I guarantee that an engineering program today *cannot* be accredited without emphasizing those elements (and be able to prove that they do).
As for corporate training, they may have seen the light, also. I attended a presentation last week by Volkswagen describing their 18-month training program for new engineering hires. (Honda's new-hire training program lasts two years.) Other major companies have similar programs.

"Have you seen help wanted ads for engineers? They have a mile-long list of qualifications that very few people meet."
Actually, it's part of my job to keep up with those, so the reality is that those lists tend to come out of the engineering departments, are added-on-to by Human Resources, and wind up as mile-long catch-all job descriptions.
Those things do intimidate our graduating seniors, so I tell them that they need to do some research and NETWORKING and find out what the companies *really* want. If the company engineers want what they know how to do, they'll get hired. The extraneous HR nonsense-qualifications are just ignored.
(Our placement rate is 95%+ so I know the system works.)

 

[Fading Fast]

My stepfather-for-seven-months had that same milk fixation. We were given Carnation powdered milk and told to lump it, while he spent his money on motorcycles and ham-radio gear. The distressing thing to me was that he actually seemed to enjoy drinking the stuff.

Amidst the unfortunate and ugly family dynamics and abuse this thread has recently been in, your post made me think of a lighter thread: Low-end products that we enjoy more than their high-end versions.

My mom hated cooking, hated the kitchen (has not turned her oven on in over 20 years - I kid you not). Growing up, most of my food was store bought or easily prepared things, which I quickly learned to do myself. For whatever reason, my mom would - about once a year - "bake" a Duncan Hines marble cake which was like the saints and apostles had descended from Heaven itself to bake for us.

I loved that cake like no tomorrow. First, it was about the only time I smelled something baking in our house and to have a slightly warm piece out of the pan was a special experience I will always remember. Most of our other baked goods were Entenmanns. Even though I've had better marble cake since - at least in theory - and I'll admit the Duncan Hines yellow color is a bit technicolor - I will always prefer that marble cake to any other even if the other is a from scratch, quality ingredients event.

Is this "theme" worth of a thread or do we have enough similar ones out there already?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I know there's been similar discussion, but can't recall a specific thread. But be that as it may, I love Spam. It's hearty, satisfying, and it tastes good. Those who sneer at it have not discovered how good it can be.

My mother was an indifferent, lousy cook, so we had a lot of fish sticks, Kraft Dinner, Spam, and those Banquet boil-in-the-bag things you pour over white rice and call it good. My favorite soup as a child wasn't even Campbells -- it was Lipton's, that came dry in an envelope. I still enjoy that to this day -- when I'm recovering from a migraine, Lipton's Noodle Soup is the only food I can keep down, and I always keep a couple of boxes on hand. I liked it more, though, when the broth came as a compressed, semi-moist cake in the envelope full of dry noodles, instead of the powder it is now. I'd break off bits of the broth cake and suck on them before dropping it into the boiling water.

 

[Fading Fast]

Well, I don't see that a person who holds the Beatitudes dear calling Miss Rand a "vile and immoral harpy" should be any more political than, say, the condemnation of bloody murder. It is a moral objection, not political.

At the risk of starting a firestorm, I'm going to disagree. Whether you like Ayn Rand or Karl Marx is not the point, but if someone posted "that vile and immoral hypocrite Karl Marx -" I'd say it's a political comment. But I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure I understood vitanola's post (as with many of his posts, their erudite references confuse me). Please let me repeat, I have no interest in arguing or starting an argument about Rand vs. Marx, but I did feel that my friend - ChiTownScion, whose posts and insights I greatly enjoy - made a political comment.

 

[Fading Fast]

I know there's been similar discussion, but can't recall a specific thread. But be that as it may, I love Spam. It's hearty, satisfying, and it tastes good. Those who sneer at it have not discovered how good it can be.

My mother was an indifferent, lousy cook, so we had a lot of fish sticks, Kraft Dinner, Spam, and those Banquet boil-in-the-bag things you pour over white rice and call it good. My favorite soup as a child wasn't even Campbells -- it was Lipton's, that came dry in an envelope. I still enjoy that to this day -- when I'm recovering from a migraine, Lipton's Noodle Soup is the only food I can keep down, and I always keep a couple of boxes on hand. I liked it more, though, when the broth came as a compressed, semi-moist cake in the envelope full of dry noodles, instead of the powder it is now. I'd break off bits of the broth cake and suck on them before dropping it into the boiling water.

Swanson Hungry Man dinners were a staple of my upbringing - haven't had one in a long enough time to know how I feel about them today. But there are also several Entennman's version of baked goods that I enjoy more than the fancy stuff. That said, and while I can still enjoy it, decently made mac n' cheese tops Kraft's despite having consume a small ocean of Kraft's version growing up.

 

[Fading Fast]

If it wasn't for my father and, probably, some sense of responsibility, my mother would have served me only food that need to be heated up - which is the most that I got other than when my father was eating with us. The thing is, I didn't care because it was basically all I knew. A slice of bread with butter and a piece of American cheese - a bag of Wise chips on the side - was a great lunch to this kid (made by this kid by the time he was, my guess, seven or eight).

 

[LizzieMaine]

Please let me repeat, I have no interest in arguing or starting an argument about Rand vs. Marx...

I'd love to write a comedy script about a match between Rand and Marx-themed professional wrestlers. I wonder if the WWE is hiring?