What are your thoughts on painted/embroidered jackets, nose arts on the types like A2, B3, B6, etc.

[rocketeer]

Do you happen to have a recommendation for a good repro painter who specializes in paintjobs for B3 and A2 in Europe?

I'm in England, a woman named Michelle Diprose is/was very good but expensive. Not been in touch with her for years, she is from Kent.
Talk to people in the Essex Suffolk area and a man nicknamed Bubs, but that's all I know though he is a very good artist in the classical portrait style. He has painted jackets so ask about.
If outside UK you will have to put out an APB.
Sorry, thats it.

 

[nick123]

If the jacket has insignia deeming it having actual provenance from a war or noteworthy figure, I'd treat it as a historic artifact and be careful with it. If decorating for personal use, I don't have any objections, other than avoiding putting ranks on the epaulets (the Buzz patched nylon repros drive me nuts with this) or adorning it in some kind of art that is blatantly representative of military service when in fact I did not serve. If such a jacket is graciously passed onto you by a relative who served, that would be my exception to this.

 

[GHT]

You mentioned your preference for fighter jackets over bomber ones. Previously I've had this question: Were the B3 jackets restricted to bomber crew only, or did fighter pilots also wore them? I couldn't find any definitive answer. Judging by what you wrote, you seem to know. You mean the A2 jackets were "fighter" jackets whereas the B3 and ANJ-4 were "bomber"? Did I get this correctly?

When you see a WW2 movie depicting the fighter plane squadrons of the RAF, you will often see the pilots running to their aircraft on hearing the scramble bell. More often than not, the pilots were only ever seen in their uniform, some are even seen in shirt sleeves. Those film makers are, on occasions, economical with actual accounts, nothing like a bit of fiction to spice up a story line, but they knew better when it came to the wardrobe department. The reason you see fighter pilots without a jacket is because the single seater takes heat from the front engined aircraft, despite the best efforts of the designers. Bomber crews flew higher and their engines are all wing mounted.

 

[rocketeer]

When choosing patches some prefer the fighters over the bombers because of the morality issues of bombing targets that may contain civilians or fighter squadrons which probably are airman against airman, many Bomb squadrons did not all use Bombs or skulls in their designs such as my 19th Bomb Squadron with it's bowling ball and pins against my 709th Bomb Squadron which blatantly does.
Probably only a military enthusiast may notice you wearing a patched jacket dedicated to a bomb squadron as a daily wearer so I could not see a problem if no depiction of bombs were shown.
Avirex used a hand of card patch on a lot of their repro's, though at that time often had lithographed depictions of bomber sorties on the backs.
Were they fictitious I do not know as I never followed anything up. Their book, Cowboys of the Sky reads like a historical volume but is nothing of the sort, just a company catalogue full of their non accurate A2s with split backs and hand warmer pocketed jackets popular at the time with a few wartime photo's thrown in for good measure. The back panel images were popular though but were they fictitious? China Doll, American Beauty, Glen Miller's Army Air Force Band, Flying Tigers and especially Going My Way Saipan 1945 were but a few, the latter featuring what would only be allowed de mobbed post war.
Just Google USAAF fighter squadron(or bomber) patches and hundreds come up, you are spoilt for choice.

 

[Edward]

So, theoretically, it wouldn't be that much of a historical faux pas to patch a B3 jacket with the 77th "All aces no jokers" Fighter Squadron insignia and its respective Fighter Group, instead of your typical bomber patches?

Patched and painted B3s seem much rarer, but it's not unthinkable that it could have happened. I'm sure I've seen photos of Tuskagee Airmen in particular, group shots of what appeared to be fighter pilots, wearing them, as wellas B6s. Don't recall the details, though.

When choosing patches some prefer the fighters over the bombers because of the morality issues of bombing targets that may contain civilians or fighter squadrons which probably are airman against airman, many Bomb squadrons did not all use Bombs or skulls in their designs such as my 19th Bomb Squadron with it's bowling ball and pins against my 709th Bomb Squadron which blatantly does.
Probably only a military enthusiast may notice you wearing a patched jacket dedicated to a bomb squadron as a daily wearer so I could not see a problem if no depiction of bombs were shown.

Depends on your focus, really. The issue for me is personal discomfort, rather than anyone else knowing. I doubt hte average person on the street would even notice some of the mored blatant stuff, really.

Avirex used a hand of card patch on a lot of their repro's, though at that time often had lithographed depictions of bomber sorties on the backs.
Were they fictitious I do not know as I never followed anything up. Their book, Cowboys of the Sky reads like a historical volume but is nothing of the sort, just a company catalogue full of their non accurate A2s with split backs and hand warmer pocketed jackets popular at the time with a few wartime photo's thrown in for good measure. The back panel images were popular though but were they fictitious? China Doll, American Beauty, Glen Miller's Army Air Force Band, Flying Tigers and especially Going My Way Saipan 1945 were but a few, the latter featuring what would only be allowed de mobbed post war.
Just Google USAAF fighter squadron(or bomber) patches and hundreds come up, you are spoilt for choice.

I suspect most of them were at least semi-fictionalised in the Top Gun era. The Glen Miller one always stuck out as interesting, given that it stood apart from the combat-focussed jackets. Miller, already a civilian star, volunteered for the US Navy in 1942, but at 38 was too old. He persuaded higher ups in the US Army to take him on in an entertainer capacity, and via that route was made Captain and later Major; he was en route to France in December 1944 when he disappeared. There are photos of him wearing an A2, with, if memory serves, rank but nothing else in the way of decoration. I'm assuming that the Avirex jackets were a merchandising tie-in with the Miller estate in the era when swing dancing and big band music regained popularity but before there was the same demand for accurate reproductions.

 

[dannyk]

I’m not going to hijack this thread as it’s only tangentially corresponds to this. But I find myself in a similar situation of feeling tugged and torn. I own several biker leather jackets and I have identified my “cheapest” which is by no means cheap just the cheapest of my lot as the one I am willing to customize. I also want to put some art on the back. But am taking baby steps. It’s a Schott 618 horsehide. The first baby step would be to put a pin on the lapel. My girlfriend as part of my Christmas gifts last year got me a Strummerville pin. It’s the foundation that was set up after the passing of the late great Joe Strummer of The Clash fame. They do a lot of work for promoting unsigned artists in ways that also help promote and raise money for things like clean water, girls education, striking workers etc... but it’s a pin that obviously will leave a hole in the leather. And then getting art on the back is permemant. Both make me consider will I want them ther forever? Will my tastes change. And I don’t foresee myself ever selling this one, but if ever comes the day it’s personalized art, and the pin will have left a hole. Sorry to have gone a bit of course just wanted you to know even us biker jacket guys can relate to this conundrum. And to add in before you make your choice remember the permanency of it and think about how you will feel about it in 10 years and the potential resale value! Good luck in making the choice and I hope whatever you choose it does indeed bring a lifetime of joy!

 

[Edward]

Ah, dear 'Uncle' Joe - closing in on sixteen years gone. Still remember where I was when I heard. Probably the only man I'd have ever willingly followed into battle. Despite him being a Sassenach. (The other great charity he inspired is Jail Guitar Doors, which was set up by Billy Bragg in Joe's memory. Designed to work with people in prison, teach them to play, to find something in music that can change their lives and help them go straight once back out. Wayne Kramer has established a US wing of this in recent years.)

I've never put a pin on a jacket unless I see it as a permanent decoration - same as putting on a patch or a stud, I suppose. Thinking about it from that angle helps, I find. Only got the one painted jacket, myself - a cheap Perfecto type with a BRMC logo on the back of it. Only worn it in a costume context, though - can't see wearing it out and about, somehow!

 

[Shin]

I’m not going to hijack this thread as it’s only tangentially corresponds to this. But I find myself in a similar situation of feeling tugged and torn. I own several biker leather jackets and I have identified my “cheapest” which is by no means cheap just the cheapest of my lot as the one I am willing to customize. I also want to put some art on the back. But am taking baby steps. It’s a Schott 618 horsehide. The first baby step would be to put a pin on the lapel. My girlfriend as part of my Christmas gifts last year got me a Strummerville pin. It’s the foundation that was set up after the passing of the late great Joe Strummer of The Clash fame. They do a lot of work for promoting unsigned artists in ways that also help promote and raise money for things like clean water, girls education, striking workers etc... but it’s a pin that obviously will leave a hole in the leather. And then getting art on the back is permemant. Both make me consider will I want them ther forever? Will my tastes change. And I don’t foresee myself ever selling this one, but if ever comes the day it’s personalized art, and the pin will have left a hole. Sorry to have gone a bit of course just wanted you to know even us biker jacket guys can relate to this conundrum. And to add in before you make your choice remember the permanency of it and think about how you will feel about it in 10 years and the potential resale value! Good luck in making the choice and I hope whatever you choose it does indeed bring a lifetime of joy!

It's no easy thing to suddenly drastically change the looks of our beloved jacket, I feel your dilemma. I still am not sure whether I will do it or not, but at the moment I think a patched and painted jacket makes it unique, like there is nothing else like it except yours. It will be a statement piece, I mean the jacket itself is already a statement piece, but this will take it to the next level. It will draw attention and people will notice for sure. I think as long as the art is tasteful and has its own statement, and you can wear it with pride and confidence, then go for it. It will make it even more casual, though. I can imagine wearing a leather jacket to work, or a buusiness interview. But a patched jacket with lots of slogans and WW II pin up girls? Well....

 

[GHT]

I can imagine wearing a leather jacket to work, or a buusiness interview. But a patched jacket with lots of slogans and WW II pin up girls? Well....

Well, there's one pin up that certainly looks a lot better on the bike than she does on the jacket.

 

[dannyk]

Ah, dear 'Uncle' Joe - closing in on sixteen years gone. Still remember where I was when I heard. Probably the only man I'd have ever willingly followed into battle. Despite him being a Sassenach. (The other great charity he inspired is Jail Guitar Doors, which was set up by Billy Bragg in Joe's memory. Designed to work with people in prison, teach them to play, to find something in music that can change their lives and help them go straight once back out. Wayne Kramer has established a US wing of this in recent years.)

I've never put a pin on a jacket unless I see it as a permanent decoration - same as putting on a patch or a stud, I suppose. Thinking about it from that angle helps, I find. Only got the one painted jacket, myself - a cheap Perfecto type with a BRMC logo on the back of it. Only worn it in a costume context, though - can't see wearing it out and about, somehow!

After having re-read this thread I have decided to at bare minimum to go ahead and put the pin on. 1. Its a little lapel pin and is barely noticeable and as so is not a huge statement piece. 2. If I dont like it, I can remove it, and no one will notice a little hole in the lapel. 3. Back art is a statement and noticeable and way harder to get rid of, if I dont like it. Having said all this as I see there are rules for where patches and emblems go for military jackets, does anyone know if there is a protocol or standard look for pins? Im feeling the left lapel, my left as in the wearer. I couldnt tell you why but unless theres some unspoken rule Im breaking I am going to go left side. Its funny @Shin that this comes up as I myself am nowhere near ready to be able to afford a new jacket anytime soon, I have already started planning my next. Im torn right now between an Aero B-6 or an Aero D-1. I have decided which ever I get though shall be the Redskin style with Dark Seal Vincenza as the accent pieces. With no patches nor artwork as I am not much of a military guy. Leaning more towards the B-6 as its front pockets can be used as handwarmers and I live in Buffalo New York where we are no strangers to wind, snow, and thunder snow. Which yes thunder snow is a real thing and quite the thing at that.

 

[nick123]

After having re-read this thread I have decided to at bare minimum to go ahead and put the pin on. 1. Its a little lapel pin and is barely noticeable and as so is not a huge statement piece. 2. If I dont like it, I can remove it, and no one will notice a little hole in the lapel. 3. Back art is a statement and noticeable and way harder to get rid of, if I dont like it. Having said all this as I see there are rules for where patches and emblems go for military jackets, does anyone know if there is a protocol or standard look for pins? Im feeling the left lapel, my left as in the wearer. I couldnt tell you why but unless theres some unspoken rule Im breaking I am going to go left side. Its funny @Shin that this comes up as I myself am nowhere near ready to be able to afford a new jacket anytime soon, I have already started planning my next. Im torn right now between an Aero B-6 or an Aero D-1. I have decided which ever I get though shall be the Redskin style with Dark Seal Vincenza as the accent pieces. With no patches nor artwork as I am not much of a military guy. Leaning more towards the B-6 as its front pockets can be used as handwarmers and I live in Buffalo New York where we are no strangers to wind, snow, and thunder snow. Which yes thunder snow is a real thing and quite the thing at that.

A little pin hole will not tarnish the jacket; even a nice Aero in my opinion. If you hold onto the jacket, in a few years time the rest of the jacket will obtain enough visual character to make the pinhole inconsequential. I actually tried something with pins to hold down my Aero A-1 collar, bur the holes were through the knit. Perhaps wear your jacket for a while and then decide?

 

[rocketeer]

Sorry to have gone a bit of course just wanted you to know even us biker jacket guys can relate to this conundrum. And to add in before you make your choice remember the permanency of it and think about how you will feel about it in 10 years and the potential resale value! Good luck in making the choice and I hope whatever you choose it does indeed bring a lifetime of joy!

I can see your dilemma here, but to be honest you have bought a jacket to wear be it a biker or Flight jacket so enjoy it. Forget the resale value for the enjoyment you will get over 10 years will far outweigh worrying about it's resale. If resale is an important thing you may become paranoid about wearing it in extreme situations such as leaning on bar tops which bikers do a lot of, getting under cars if you drive an oldie but goodie or brushing up against a walls etc. I even lent mine to a lady I was romancing to sit on in a field, thats the Walter Raleigh in me
Most of my jackets are wearers and though I don't go out of my way to purposely get them dirty but I'm afraid if it happens it happens. And if when you do sell it, well someone will always try to beat you down on a price even if it's a minter.

It's no easy thing to suddenly drastically change the looks of our beloved jacket, I feel your dilemma. I still am not sure whether I will do it or not, but at the moment I think a patched and painted jacket makes it unique, like there is nothing else like it except yours. It will be a statement piece, I mean the jacket itself is already a statement piece, but this will take it to the next level. It will draw attention and people will notice for sure. I think as long as the art is tasteful and has its own statement, and you can wear it with pride and confidence, then go for it. It will make it even more casual, though. I can imagine wearing a leather jacket to work, or a buusiness interview. But a patched jacket with lots of slogans and WW II pin up girls? Well....

You could always wear it to the office on a 'Dress down Friday' something I have never believed in for managers and above. I could not take a manager seriously were he to be wearing Steve McQueens original Great Escape jacket, nor Brando's biker with BRMC plastered on the back. Some may disagree but it is just my opinion. Casual wear to work then remove it, fair do. Never to an interview unless you happen to be a musician or pop star such as Slash etc!

Pin badges in leather? Think of all those Ace Cafe Queens with their Lewis Leathers decorated with hundreds of studs and badges of bikes they have never heard of, let alone ridden. I have never done the decorated bike jacket thing and just wear one badge of a bike I have had or ridden. They are ok on an old style bike jacket such as my Eastman Luftwaffe(zip pockets) but don't bother on my Power Ranger leathers.

Well, there's one pin up that certainly looks a lot better on the bike than she does on the jacket.
View attachment 139570

Nice girl, nice bike but the shoes YUK!

And as for back painting a biker jacket, make sure there are no top or bottom rockers unless you are one of 'Them'. You can get into all sorts of agro over the most innocent of things.

 

[rocketeer]

Well, there's one pin up that certainly looks a lot better on the bike than she does on the jacket.
View attachment 139570

I wonder what Rita was doing at the Triumph Factory? (I still don't like the shoes haha)

 

[Edward]

After having re-read this thread I have decided to at bare minimum to go ahead and put the pin on. 1. Its a little lapel pin and is barely noticeable and as so is not a huge statement piece. 2. If I dont like it, I can remove it, and no one will notice a little hole in the lapel. 3. Back art is a statement and noticeable and way harder to get rid of, if I dont like it. Having said all this as I see there are rules for where patches and emblems go for military jackets, does anyone know if there is a protocol or standard look for pins? Im feeling the left lapel, my left as in the wearer. I couldnt tell you why but unless theres some unspoken rule Im breaking I am going to go left side. Its funny @Shin that this comes up as I myself am nowhere near ready to be able to afford a new jacket anytime soon, I have already started planning my next. Im torn right now between an Aero B-6 or an Aero D-1. I have decided which ever I get though shall be the Redskin style with Dark Seal Vincenza as the accent pieces. With no patches nor artwork as I am not much of a military guy. Leaning more towards the B-6 as its front pockets can be used as handwarmers and I live in Buffalo New York where we are no strangers to wind, snow, and thunder snow. Which yes thunder snow is a real thing and quite the thing at that.

I tend to wear my pins first in the left hand lapel, a habit born of that being the norm when wearing a pin with a suit (akin to a flower or a nosegay). I don't think there's a military equivalent - at least, most any rank pips I've ever seen were duplicated on both sides.

 

[dannyk]

Now you’ve gone and done it @Edward Ive got myself a Jail Guitar Doors pin. I said ah hell if Joes going on there Wayne Kramer and Billy Bragg’s foundstion certainly deserve its place. Should be here in 3 business days. 20 US dollars for a pin, but for a great cause I can stomach. Clang clang go the Jail guitar doors.

 

[Edward]

Ohhh! Not seen those before.... Want.

The other answer for pins, of course, is a denim vest for over the leather....

 

[Shin]

Hello Shin,
There are indeed rules regarding patch placement; bomb group and bomb squadrons on the chest are left-right specific.
As are the sleeve insignia - but if you get some books like Art of the Flight Jacket or American Flight Jackets, you’ll see original jackets that had anomalies - and if you really research and get into the patches, you’ll find anomalies there in the materials and stitching and some had rare flaws amongst production and were used too!
But I must say that the anomalies of the patch placement draw my eye as being incorrect, despite being that way on an original jacket.
But if it was me, I’d adhere to the correct protocol of bomb squadron on the left front panel (as you wear it) and bomb group on the front right. Name tag on the left side. AAF patch on left sleeve and numbered AF patch on the right.

And I believe that most fighter pilots used the A2 and if they needed some warmth (like the Lockheed Lightning pilots as those cockpits were notoriously cold) got a B6 for themselves.
The B3’s were for bomber crews and would be too bulky for a fighter’s cockpit I would think ... could be wrong but I associate the B3 exclusively with bomber crews.

And as for looking too “costumey” - it depends how you pair the jacket with the rest of what you’re wearing. Keep it real and not too vintage and you’ll be okay. Go too far and you’ll draw comments like so many of us have around here... and heck, sometimes you don’t have to go far! Just wear an Irvin to the pub and some jackwagon will have something smart to say as you sip on your pint minding your own business (like “Lost yer Spitfire mate? Hur hur! I saw it in the car park around back. Must be yours! Yuk Yuk!”) . It’s unoriginal stuff and it happens. That’s people for you. But try to limit the uninvited intrusion of idiots by not drawing their idiot comments and mix the jacket with something that gives a nod to the vintage without being vintage and that has some style of its own and you should be okay.

So I was just browsing Eastman's Instagram and lo and behold! Guess what I found. Numbered roundel on left sleeve instead of on the right.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bfik_4KlSfV/?taken-by=eastmanleatherclothing

 

[navetsea]

sleeves are easier to get patched than back, also might be enough to give just right amount of character to the jacket, also sleeve get more wrinkle, so in no time new creases would form around the patch and it makes it look the part, while on the back it might look brand new much longer.