What are your thoughts on painted/embroidered jackets, nose arts on the types like A2, B3, B6, etc.

[Shin]

I always loved patched and painted A2s, but even in the early 1980s they cost a few £££. About £300-400 could get you a decent sized WWII era jacket with some great nose art or bomb art etc on the back, sometimes with all the provenance collectors would kill for today.
I got one eventually a perfectly wearable 15th AAF jacket I still have today, size 44 with some great patches but no back nose art or bombs.
During the 1980s Rockabilly and Hep Cat music was becoming very popular in a lot of clubs with many clubbers wearing original American clothing. Usually 1950s sports jackets and slacks etc, no repro clothing was produced until a few years later no most of it was the genuine thing and even better if it had a Made in'California' label in it.
Alas I diverse
Not many men, we were mostly in out teens or early 20s, wore leather jackets in these clubs, girls were only interested in you if you wore original USA gear and leather was not in great attendance apart from a few Marlon Brando bikers, flight jackets were never seen even around the London clubs.
Im not really boasting but maybe a little , I was one of the first to wear flight jackets to these clubs, the odd one out maybe wearing my A2s. Very soon and I really mean that the jackets were everywhere, popularised by the Indianna Jones, Yanks and Top Gun films, plus a few other 40s themed films featuring the look,Hanover Street and a series We'll Meet Again were two TV series.
Still hungering for a pin up painted jacket I bought a rather poor condition original with a rather pin up of the Vaga era missing a lot of details including the head. Not a cool look missing a swimsuited lovely with no smile.
I had a local girl who was a bit of an artiste armed with a copy of the print re-paint over it SACRILEGE I can hear everyone shout, but this jacket had been re-patched a couple of times and I had no idea of any of its history.
As time passed into the 1990s repro jackets were everywhere, from Aero leather and also Eastman, may of their jackets ended up with painted ladies on the rear. Of course most were drawn and painted by superb artists putting great detail into their images. But looking at original jackets from the multitude of books available, not all were glamour girls and many were not that well painted but interesting as examples of what young men were interested in at the time.
The jacket I had painted/repaired was not the Gainsborough quality you see on a lot of jackets today, rather something a local lad may have painted in his spare time and I have to say I had some pleasing comments made about it at that time.
I don't know if it is still around as it was wearable but had a rather cold damp feeling about it. I eventually sold it to pay for some car insurance I had on an old 1960 Cadillac.
One word of warning though, new custom painted jackets are like custom painted cars. No matter how you love it and no matter how well it is painted etc, they can be hard to sell on if you wish to get rid, especially name tagged and personal themed stuff. But it's ok for originals if you can prove the provenance.
I have never had another painted jacket but sure wish I did. I'd wear the hell out of it

Johnny Tee.

Hey Johnny. Thanks for the interesting history and story

How much do you reckon would be a decent price to pay for a good paintjob on a B3 jacket nowadays? A few hundred bucks?
I don't mean the patches and whatnot, just a pin up girl painted on the back with some slogans maybe.

And I suppose if you really hate attention then you shouldn't ever draw on your jacket, especially something so bold haha. Buy if you enjoy being the center of attention and have the attitude to pull it off, then I suppose you could have lots of fun with a properly painted and patched jacket.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't get offended easily and am certainly not politically correct. Nude WW2 art is just that for me...art. I just have never felt that the most extreme ' colorful ' language has added anything worthwhile to a conversation. It just shows a form of disrespect for anyone who might find it objectionable and possibly not agree with the few who regularly use it or are part of that crowd.

 

[Downunder G Man]

Well I probably do use such "language" as Shin on an irregular basis.I don't use it on this forum but "biker" forums well AOK!
However I am NOT offended by it in this context.
My Avirex A2 only has the one patch/badge as shown in this photo and as said , I like it !

 

[Sloan1874]

I think a well-worn A-2 can be given a new lease of life with the addition of patches and art, it just has to be done with a bit of thought and care. There's a great BBC Radio 4 doc about Disney during the war, and one of the interesting facts is that he encouraged his cartoonists to produce endless patches using their characters.

 

[Shin]

I think a well-worn A-2 can be given a new lease of life with the addition of patches and art, it just has to be done with a bit of thought and care. There's a great BBC Radio 4 doc about Disney during the war, and one of the interesting facts is that he encouraged his cartoonists to produce endless patches using their characters.

A shrewd business man indeed. He gets free marketing, spread the Disney name all over Europe and Asia... From a business perspective, it makes perfect sense

 

[Shin]

Well I probably do use such "language" as Shin on an irregular basis.I don't use it on this forum but "biker" forums well AOK!
However I am NOT offended by it in this context.
My Avirex A2 only has the one patch/badge as shown in this photo and as said , I like it ! View attachment 139190

It is a lovely A2 indeed. I just checked Avirex' website. It's apparently choke full of Japanese words now. And the price, oh man, 2500 bucks for a B3. From your personal experience, do you think Avirex is really better than the likes of Eastman and McCoy?

 

[rocketeer]

As a lover of the painted jacket I have to say that a plain A2 is a more versatile garment than a painted one. That is if you just want a jacket for everyday wear it blend in without looking like a cheap mall jacket, where as a decorated item will always attract attention whether you want it or not. But by that I don't mean you will be pestered every minute or bombarded with questions, just maybe looks.
The A2 is such a simple classic design it can fit in with modern clothing so get the length right and it doesn't have to be retro high waisted USAAF trousers as standard Jeans will also work too.

 

[Downunder G Man]

My recently acquired Avirex A2 came by the way of Australian ebay. Sold "used" by a militaria collector/dealer.

As is (hopefully) often with ebay purchases it was a real good buy. Before now an A2 would not have been "my style".

Thanks to the Fedora lounge for that change of direction haha...

Actually wore it to work today , conventional dress otherwise , tho' it was 27C with humidity on the way home.

I have also worn it to ride my Harley Springer CVO Softail on a 60 K's round trip and it was fine for that endeavour.

I also have 2 Eastman Luftwaffe jackets , 25+ years apart in age , and the Avirex is "probably" not as well made.

It was also nowhere as near expensive landed at my door in Perth Western Australia !!!

 

[rocketeer]

It is a lovely A2 indeed. I just checked Avirex' website. It's apparently choke full of Japanese words now. And the price, oh man, 2500 bucks for a B3. From your personal experience, do you think Avirex is really better than the likes of Eastman and McCoy?

Not looked at an Avirex for 30+ years, they used to be mega money for something similar to Aviation Leathercraft Irvins but with hand warmer pockets, the only thing classing it as a B3 was the label They did have printed maps in their A2, also with back seam and hand warmers, and probably more Flying Tiger versions than members of the Squadrons/groups in the conflict.

Hey Johnny. Thanks for the interesting history and story

How much do you reckon would be a decent price to pay for a good paintjob on a B3 jacket nowadays? A few hundred bucks?
I don't mean the patches and whatnot, just a pin up girl painted on the back with some slogans maybe.

And I suppose if you really hate attention then you shouldn't ever draw on your jacket, especially something so bold haha. Buy if you enjoy being the center of attention and have the attitude to pull it off, then I suppose you could have lots of fun with a properly painted and patched jacket.

I never did the re enactor thing, they did not exist over here in the 1980s, you may have found a veteran wearing a uniform explaining an exhibit but no large groups back then

Here is the jacket with the 'restored artwork by an artist I knew. Paintwork repaired back in 1984, so it will now look old. Anyone seen it? Apart from the back it has a 709th squadron emblem as seen below on the left breast

The price of a decent painting can be a hunt on it's own. As I wrote the quality can depend on the artist, join a figure painting class and learn the basics, then practice yourself. I do think a good artist may charge around £200-300. A real professional in the old master style painting, that is to say where you could pick out the figures hair strands and freckles etc could cost a fortune.

I think a well-worn A-2 can be given a new lease of life with the addition of patches and art, it just has to be done with a bit of thought and care. There's a great BBC Radio 4 doc about Disney during the war, and one of the interesting facts is that he encouraged his cartoonists to produce endless patches using their characters.

One thing to note here Craig, a new patch on an old jacket doest quite look correct as doesn't an old patch on a new jacket. Paint with model enamels and you can make an affect of an old patch by letting it thoroughly dry over a few months, place a piece of sellotape or similar on the paint, rub a little lightly in various places and pull it off. It takes practice to get it right.
I had a patch put on a daily wearer early well worn Eastman jacket, a well respected dealer thought they were both original. I had the 19th Bombardment Squadron patch on the left put on my jacket. The 709th Knettishall based patch awaits a new home on a jacket.......sometime.

One way to fake ageing on a patch that looks terrible are those with dirty thinners brushed over the insignia. It is fake and looks fake, most of all it looks awful(Non shown but lots usually on ebay or at shows)
Seeya JTee

 

[Brettafett]

"Paint with model enamels and you can make an affect of an old patch by letting it thoroughly dry over a few months, place a piece of sellotape or similar on the paint, rub a little lightly in various places and pull it off. It takes practice to get it right." Brilliant. Thanks!

 

[Sloan1874]

Not looked at an Avirex for 30+ years, they used to be mega money for something similar to Aviation Leathercraft Irvins but with hand warmer pockets, the only thing classing it as a B3 was the label They did have printed maps in their A2, also with back seam and hand warmers, and probably more Flying Tiger versions than members of the Squadrons/groups in the conflict.

I never did the re enactor thing, they did not exist over here in the 1980s, you may have found a veteran wearing a uniform explaining an exhibit but no large groups back then

Here is the jacket with the 'restored artwork by an artist I knew. Paintwork repaired back in 1984, so it will now look old. Anyone seen it? Apart from the back it has a 709th squadron emblem as seen below on the left breast

The price of a decent painting can be a hunt on it's own. As I wrote the quality can depend on the artist, join a figure painting class and learn the basics, then practice yourself. I do think a good artist may charge around £200-300. A real professional in the old master style painting, that is to say where you could pick out the figures hair strands and freckles etc could cost a fortune.



One thing to note here Craig, a new patch on an old jacket doest quite look correct as doesn't an old patch on a new jacket. Paint with model enamels and you can make an affect of an old patch by letting it thoroughly dry over a few months, place a piece of sellotape or similar on the paint, rub a little lightly in various places and pull it off. It takes practice to get it right.
I had a patch put on a daily wearer early well worn Eastman jacket, a well respected dealer thought they were both original. I had the 19th Bombardment Squadron patch on the left put on my jacket. The 709th Knettishall based patch awaits a new home on a jacket.......sometime.

One way to fake ageing on a patch that looks terrible are those with dirty thinners brushed over the insignia. It is fake and looks fake, most of all it looks awful(Non shown but lots usually on ebay or at shows)
Seeya JTee

You're absolutely right! Great job, btw!!

 

[Edward]

I've always enjoyed looking at patched and decorated jackets. Would I wear one? Maybe. Depends.

Some of the patches and artwork is of great historical significance, but not all of it would I want to wear today. I've owned two A2s; one ELC, plain, and one Aero, which has a 77th Fighter Group patch. I fell into wearing the Aero far more; too big for it currently, but while the ELC will definitely go soon, the Aero is, I think, staying, as long as I shrink to fit it gain properly(! - I'd order a 44 now, but it's one of the later, boxier patterns, so when I'm down to fighting weight again, it should still fit. Otherwise it'll have to go and be replaced by a very similar jacket). I'm also still planning an AVG USN-type jacket with a Hell's Angels patch and a leather bloodchit on the back. Were one of these to be my only jacket, I'd prefer it plain (I might still even buy a current issue G1 to have a plain version to wear about). The AVG I'll not wear everywhere: I spend time in China every year with work, and I wouldn't wear a jacket with a bloodchit sporting the nationalist flag there; yes, people know the historical context by and large, but there's no point causing offence where it's avoidable. If growing up in Northern Ireland taught me one thing, it's that no flag is worth getting in a fight over if I can reasonably avoid it.

Where I do tend to split hairs is that I much prefer to wear fighter patches, rather than bomber crew. Targetting other warriors is one thing; I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of something the could be interpreted as celebrating the bombing of civilians. Purely a personal preference - I certainly don't judge others for choosing otherwise.

One thing I am often tempted by is the idea of patching up an A2 in regalia associated with the BPRD (Bureau of Paranormal Research and Development) of Hellboy fame.

My recently purchased Avirex A2 has the following "badge" on it. It was advertised as

"reproduction A2’ Leather Jacket ‘ with hand painted on leather 392nd bomb group patch"

With an obvious Crusader/Knight riding a falling bomb it may be a "careful" wear in these politically correct times !

Certainly looks the goods to me and previously I was never an A2 guy !
View attachment 139091

Nicely done. I like the look of the knight; the full plate, high-middle ages armour is done in a lovely cartoony style there. I'd probably avoid wearing a crusader style emblem in the UK nowadays, though, as it's imagery that has here pretty much entirely been co-opted by some very unpleasant extremist sorts, for the obvious reason.

I never did the re enactor thing, they did not exist over here in the 1980s, you may have found a veteran wearing a uniform explaining an exhibit but no large groups back then

For better or worse, I think most 'living history' things start to really kick in just as the respective generation for whom it was living memory comes within a decade or so of dying out. Of course, growing up in Northern Ireland also complicated things - not least making the difference that very few of us, compared to kids growing up in Britain, would have had grandparents that served in WW2, bearing in mind that conscription was not extended to NI in either World War (or, indeed, in the post-war 'National Service' period). Our grandparent taught us about rationing and the Belfast blitz, war relief work at the airport and the Americans arriving, but it was a different experience.

Here is the jacket with the 'restored artwork by an artist I knew. Paintwork repaired back in 1984, so it will now look old. Anyone seen it? Apart from the back it has a 709th squadron emblem as seen below on the left breast

The price of a decent painting can be a hunt on it's own. As I wrote the quality can depend on the artist, join a figure painting class and learn the basics, then practice yourself. I do think a good artist may charge around £200-300. A real professional in the old master style painting, that is to say where you could pick out the figures hair strands and freckles etc could cost a fortune.

No, getting a good one will cost, even if - ironically - it makes the jacket harder to sell on. Was there a Disney Tinkerbell influence on your jacket? Something about the pose suggests it to me.

 

[Edward]

On the matter of Irvins, no, they were never painted. Highly prized by pilots -I've read BoB and later bomber crew diary entries in which they guiltily celebrate gaining an Irvin that a downed comrade left behind. Regs on the matter of decoration seem to have been more firmly enforced in the RAF than with the USAAF. I wonder was it, in part, a class-based thing, too? The RAF - pilots at least - were much more drawn from the upper classes than any other branch of service (not that there weren't working class boys there, but at least at the start of the war there was still that distinction). The English upper classes who dominated the RAF in its early decades would have likely viewed decorating jackets as crass an ungentlemanly.

The USAAF tried - with limited success - to stamp out such decoration after 26 November 1943. On that date, a B17 was downed and airmen captured wearing jackets bearing artwork relating to "Murder Inc", a name given by the media to 30s/40s New York Italian & Jewish mobsters. Goebbels went to town with the photos, claiming it to prove that the American enemy were nothing but thug and gangsters. In the field, though, it seems the jacket decoration carried on as normal. What I suspect largely killed it was the switch to nylon...

 

[rocketeer]

Was there a Disney Tinkerbell influence on your jacket? Something about the pose suggests it to me.

Hi Edward, sorry no Tinkerbell there. This was an original jacket, the only photo I have. The original pin up was as said needed restoring with a new head, fingers and other parts of the body but basically recognisable from Esquire's December 1943 issue and it's Varga(s) centerspread (Bellow)
I guess it was angled like this to fit the back of the jacket.

Hi Brett.

"Paint with model enamels and you can make an affect of an old patch by letting it thoroughly dry over a few months, place a piece of sellotape or similar on the paint, rub a little lightly in various places and pull it off. It takes practice to get it right." Brilliant. Thanks!

Start by laying down a thin base coat of the picture and let it dry out a few days. Rub over with some white spirit or enamel thinners, NOT lacquer thinners or any solvent based thinner. Rub just enough to remove a little of the base allowing the leather to show, but only in small areas then allow to completely dry. Next paint your image using a medium thickness and complete your picture, and allow to dry completely, it may take a few weeks but I allowed a couple of months as the top surface becomes hard long before the under layers. Don't make this too thick but when you bend the leather it should crack the paint and some will flake off.
Now comes the hard part. Place a standard 25mm strip of sellotape or similar clear tape over the parts you wish to weather so to speak and rub with the point of a pencil or anything like that in certain areas, pull off the tape. Depending how much pressure you rub and how thick the paint is depends on the amount of paint removed. I would recommend painting a few similar bits of old leather side by side and practising a few times before going for the final attempt. I had two goes before I got the orange on the 709th patch to my satisfaction. The white colour is rather thick so broke away slightly more. finally when you are satisfied, I just rubbed some varnish all over the patch with a rag and left for ages. Clear varnish tends to darken slightly giving whites a 'used' look.
The process was not rushed but I just did it in my spare time. The patches were made nearly 35 years ago and are still fine to this day, yes they have lost a little more paint over the years just sitting in drawers with other stuff etc but look great on an old worn in jacket.
Have a go, but practice practice practice
John

 

[navetsea]

if only I have the guts to really put on paints on leather jacket.... can't "ctrl+Z" the errors.

 

[rocketeer]

A good way to practice would be to obtain an old brown leather settee/sofa or leather chair, Freecycle often have them, then strip off the old panels with a heavy duty craft knife(Stanley knife in the UK) then take your sofa etc frame to the local recycling centre.
Of course practice and if you mess it up during the wet stage you can wipe off and repaint, and you have lots more to practice on.
Don't worry about it not being the correct 5inch horsehide if going on a jacket, I doubt there will be anyone who will say "Thats not the correct weight horse hide the military used or it's the wrong size(they were not all). The only thing I can advise is you use a nice smooth panel piece without any major creasing.
All this advice is of course given by a non collector(Me )who has never been interested in reenacting, but I do have friends that are. I just like interesting things from the period and it's history and if they are beyond my pocket why not recreate those things as best as we can.
So good luck with your Bugs Bunny's kicking 'Der Fuhrer' and near naked Blond Bombshells, it would great to see more examples of home made nose art etc or even pro made posted here.
Johnny Tee.

 

[Shin]

A good way to practice would be to obtain an old brown leather settee/sofa or leather chair, Freecycle often have them, then strip off the old panels with a heavy duty craft knife(Stanley knife in the UK) then take your sofa etc frame to the local recycling centre.
Of course practice and if you mess it up during the wet stage you can wipe off and repaint, and you have lots more to practice on.
Don't worry about it not being the correct 5inch horsehide if going on a jacket, I doubt there will be anyone who will say "Thats not the correct weight horse hide the military used or it's the wrong size(they were not all). The only thing I can advise is you use a nice smooth panel piece without any major creasing.
All this advice is of course given by a non collector(Me )who has never been interested in reenacting, but I do have friends that are. I just like interesting things from the period and it's history and if they are beyond my pocket why not recreate those things as best as we can.
So good luck with your Bugs Bunny's kicking 'Der Fuhrer' and near naked Blond Bombshells, it would great to see more examples of home made nose art etc or even pro made posted here.
Johnny Tee.

Do you happen to have a recommendation for a good repro painter who specializes in paintjobs for B3 and A2 in Europe?

 

[Shin]

I've always enjoyed looking at patched and decorated jackets. Would I wear one? Maybe. Depends.

Some of the patches and artwork is of great historical significance, but not all of it would I want to wear today. I've owned two A2s; one ELC, plain, and one Aero, which has a 77th Fighter Group patch. I fell into wearing the Aero far more; too big for it currently, but while the ELC will definitely go soon, the Aero is, I think, staying, as long as I shrink to fit it gain properly(! - I'd order a 44 now, but it's one of the later, boxier patterns, so when I'm down to fighting weight again, it should still fit. Otherwise it'll have to go and be replaced by a very similar jacket). I'm also still planning an AVG USN-type jacket with a Hell's Angels patch and a leather bloodchit on the back. Were one of these to be my only jacket, I'd prefer it plain (I might still even buy a current issue G1 to have a plain version to wear about). The AVG I'll not wear everywhere: I spend time in China every year with work, and I wouldn't wear a jacket with a bloodchit sporting the nationalist flag there; yes, people know the historical context by and large, but there's no point causing offence where it's avoidable. If growing up in Northern Ireland taught me one thing, it's that no flag is worth getting in a fight over if I can reasonably avoid it.

Where I do tend to split hairs is that I much prefer to wear fighter patches, rather than bomber crew. Targetting other warriors is one thing; I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of something the could be interpreted as celebrating the bombing of civilians. Purely a personal preference - I certainly don't judge others for choosing otherwise.

One thing I am often tempted by is the idea of patching up an A2 in regalia associated with the BPRD (Bureau of Paranormal Research and Development) of Hellboy fame.



Nicely done. I like the look of the knight; the full plate, high-middle ages armour is done in a lovely cartoony style there. I'd probably avoid wearing a crusader style emblem in the UK nowadays, though, as it's imagery that has here pretty much entirely been co-opted by some very unpleasant extremist sorts, for the obvious reason.



For better or worse, I think most 'living history' things start to really kick in just as the respective generation for whom it was living memory comes within a decade or so of dying out. Of course, growing up in Northern Ireland also complicated things - not least making the difference that very few of us, compared to kids growing up in Britain, would have had grandparents that served in WW2, bearing in mind that conscription was not extended to NI in either World War (or, indeed, in the post-war 'National Service' period). Our grandparent taught us about rationing and the Belfast blitz, war relief work at the airport and the Americans arriving, but it was a different experience.



No, getting a good one will cost, even if - ironically - it makes the jacket harder to sell on. Was there a Disney Tinkerbell influence on your jacket? Something about the pose suggests it to me.

You mentioned your preference for fighter jackets over bomber ones. Previously I've had this question: Were the B3 jackets restricted to bomber crew only, or did fighter pilots also wore them? I couldn't find any definitive answer. Judging by what you wrote, you seem to know. You mean the A2 jackets were "fighter" jackets whereas the B3 and ANJ-4 were "bomber"? Did I get this correctly?

 

[Edward]

You mentioned your preference for fighter jackets over bomber ones. Previously I've had this question: Were the B3 jackets restricted to bomber crew only, or did fighter pilots also wore them? I couldn't find any definitive answer. Judging by what you wrote, you seem to know. You mean the A2 jackets were "fighter" jackets whereas the B3 and ANJ-4 were "bomber"? Did I get this correctly?

I'm even more of a hairsplitter than that - I'll wear bomber jackets, just not the insignia!

In all honesty, I'e never been able to find a clear picture on what was issued. By the time the US entered the War in 1942, the sheepskin jackets were already about to be superceded by textiles (though obviously most of them saw out the duration of the war). Best as I can make out, A2s and B3s were issued to aircrew indiscriminate of role during the 30s. Around 1940 the B6 was developed to provide something in between the two. I know it was favoured by fighter pilots and some bomber crews who were in more cramped parts of the plane, like the cockpit, but I don't believe it ever actually replaced the B3 as issue - only a relatively small number, afaik, were actually put out there. Some aircrew managed to get hold of D1s (exclusively issued to groundcrew, some of whom were only too happy to swap for a B3). It seems that there was little full standardistion during the war period, with several jacket designs coming and going in that tight, 42-45 late-war period that the US was involved in.

 

[Shin]

I'm even more of a hairsplitter than that - I'll wear bomber jackets, just not the insignia!

In all honesty, I'e never been able to find a clear picture on what was issued. By the time the US entered the War in 1942, the sheepskin jackets were already about to be superceded by textiles (though obviously most of them saw out the duration of the war). Best as I can make out, A2s and B3s were issued to aircrew indiscriminate of role during the 30s. Around 1940 the B6 was developed to provide something in between the two. I know it was favoured by fighter pilots and some bomber crews who were in more cramped parts of the plane, like the cockpit, but I don't believe it ever actually replaced the B3 as issue - only a relatively small number, afaik, were actually put out there. Some aircrew managed to get hold of D1s (exclusively issued to groundcrew, some of whom were only too happy to swap for a B3). It seems that there was little full standardistion during the war period, with several jacket designs coming and going in that tight, 42-45 late-war period that the US was involved in.

So, theoretically, it wouldn't be that much of a historical faux pas to patch a B3 jacket with the 77th "All aces no jokers" Fighter Squadron insignia and its respective Fighter Group, instead of your typical bomber patches?